0:00:00.000,0:00:01.260
[Hanna Serkowska] The very fact of raising a problem,

0:00:01.260,0:00:03.820
drawing attention to it,

0:00:03.820,0:00:04.480
the fact

0:00:04.560,0:00:07.280
that when talking to someone we also have to pay attention to facial expressions,

0:00:07.300,0:00:07.880
gestures,

0:00:07.880,0:00:08.500
silences,

0:00:08.560,0:00:09.720
the person's mood,

0:00:09.940,0:00:11.380
anxiety,

0:00:11.380,0:00:13.280
respect for the patient,

0:00:13.340,0:00:14.580
their experience,

0:00:14.600,0:00:15.720
their status,

0:00:15.720,0:00:16.600
their history,

0:00:16.620,0:00:19.560
their economic situation, even

0:00:19.560,0:00:20.060
their family situation –

0:00:20.060,0:00:24.160
all of this somehow develops empathy and such mindfulness.

0:00:29.100,0:00:31.700
[Music] We invite you to listen to episodes 

0:00:31.700,0:00:35.380
of the new podcast series "Polish Studies Newsletter's Meetings"

0:00:38.120,0:00:41.000
Polish studies are not a helpless observation of the world.

0:00:41.960,0:00:43.520
They provide tools to navigate it,

0:00:44.800,0:00:46.580
to enable a greater understanding of it, and

0:00:46.740,0:00:50.080
prevent exclusion and loneliness.

0:00:51.700,0:00:53.760
This is the Polish studies 

0:00:53.760,0:00:55.940
we want to showcase through our project:

0:00:57.660,0:00:59.580
"Engaged Polish Studies."

0:01:06.300,0:01:07.860
[Marta Chojnacka-Kuraś] Good morning, Hanna.

0:01:08.000,0:01:09.260
[Hanna Serkowska] Good morning, Marta.

0:01:09.340,0:01:10.680
[Marta Chojnacka-Kuraś] Thank you very much

0:01:10.680,0:01:13.400
for accepting the invitation to this meeting.

0:01:13.840,0:01:16.860
Perhaps I should first introduce our interviewee.

0:01:17.180,0:01:20.080
Hanna Serkowska is a professor and

0:01:20.120,0:01:21.620
literary scholar.

0:01:21.700,0:01:24.800
She works in the Department of Italian Studies at the

0:01:24.800,0:01:25.560
University of Warsaw.

0:01:26.360,0:01:28.680
Her area of ​​interest has evolved.

0:01:29.020,0:01:31.560
Initially closely related to Italian culture,

0:01:31.580,0:01:32.120
language, and

0:01:32.140,0:01:33.160
literature,

0:01:33.180,0:01:36.660
it gradually expanded to include comparative studies,

0:01:36.680,0:01:38.620
literary theory and criticism,

0:01:38.700,0:01:40.380
history, and

0:01:40.400,0:01:41.280
historiography,

0:01:41.300,0:01:43.820
and over time also encompassed

0:01:44.320,0:01:47.760
ageing studies and medical humanities.

0:01:47.940,0:01:50.360
For about a decade,

0:01:50.520,0:01:53.220
Professor Hanna Serkowska has been researching narrative medicine,

0:01:53.220,0:01:55.140
the connections between medicine,

0:01:55.140,0:01:57.680
health and illness, and literature and art.

0:01:57.880,0:01:59.580
She is the author of,

0:01:59.700,0:02:01.660
among other books, "What about old age?

0:02:01.680,0:02:04.800
On old age and illness in European literature and film"

0:02:05.840,0:02:09.100
and co-editor of an issue of "Teksty Drugie"

0:02:09.100,0:02:11.500
devoted to narrative medicine.

0:02:11.540,0:02:15.140
We met in 2018 during

0:02:15.140,0:02:17.600
a conference on narrative medicine

0:02:17.600,0:02:19.380
at the University of Warsaw.

0:02:20.280,0:02:23.580
Hanna Serkowska's latest work includes projects

0:02:23.580,0:02:26.900
and publications devoted to issues such as mourning,

0:02:26.900,0:02:27.620
euthanasia,

0:02:27.640,0:02:30.920
as well as depression and its depictions in contemporary culture.

0:02:31.960,0:02:33.760
Depression is the subject of, among others, the article

0:02:33.900,0:02:36.360
"I Don't Give the Boat Any Chance.

0:02:36.420,0:02:37.280
Depression,

0:02:37.280,0:02:38.680
Illness, or Disappointment,"

0:02:38.880,0:02:42.620
which was published in "Ruch Literacki" in 2023.

0:02:42.920,0:02:46.140
Currently, Hanna Serkowska is working on the book

0:02:46.140,0:02:46.680
"God D.

0:02:46.820,0:02:49.460
Languages ​​of Depression" and is preparing a collective volume

0:02:49.580,0:02:51.600
about medical narratives.

0:02:51.740,0:02:53.760
Her interests are very broad,

0:02:53.800,0:02:55.300
but of course, there's a lot of medicine and

0:02:55.300,0:02:56.800
a lot of humanities involved.

0:02:57.040,0:02:57.840
Hanna,

0:02:57.840,0:03:01.220
would you like to add anything to these interests,

0:03:01.220,0:03:03.120
to tell us where they came from?

0:03:03.550,0:03:04.550
[Hanna Serkowska] First of all, Marta,

0:03:04.550,0:03:05.890
thank you very much for the invitation.

0:03:06.590,0:03:08.830
Of course, I accepted it with great pleasure.

0:03:09.210,0:03:10.190
I like challenges.

0:03:11.610,0:03:12.130
I reached out

0:03:12.130,0:03:12.970
because you asked

0:03:13.050,0:03:14.990
if this was already

0:03:14.990,0:03:15.630
written

0:03:15.630,0:03:18.030
somewhere in my biography ; such interests could have been anticipated.

0:03:18.090,0:03:21.090
I did some soul-searching and thought

0:03:21.090,0:03:22.790
that I hadn't been able to go to medical school,

0:03:22.790,0:03:23.810
I hadn't,

0:03:23.870,0:03:25.110
for various health reasons,

0:03:25.190,0:03:27.770
but I probably also had

0:03:27.770,0:03:28.830
other stronger interests.

0:03:29.500,0:03:31.200
But since we're not all doctors,

0:03:31.200,0:03:32.620
we're all patients.

0:03:32.640,0:03:35.180
And I remembered an incident from 40 years ago,

0:03:35.380,0:03:39.760
when I was carried off the tennis court

0:03:39.760,0:03:40.260
in sharp pain

0:03:40.260,0:03:42.740
from a slipped disc, and when I went

0:03:42.740,0:03:43.220
to a surgeon

0:03:43.220,0:03:44.040
who said—

0:03:44.040,0:03:45.840
I was a fresh graduate at the time,

0:03:45.920,0:03:47.040
a young woman— and

0:03:47.040,0:03:47.500
I quote:

0:03:47.500,0:03:49.560
"She's bored and probably wants attention."

0:03:50.940,0:03:53.720
Besides the back pain, the irony

0:03:53.720,0:03:54.420
and disregard

0:03:54.500,0:03:56.280
the specialist showed me hurt, of course

0:03:56.650,0:03:58.750
. Once I received the correct diagnosis,

0:03:58.790,0:04:01.430
the terror was accompanied by a feeling of relief.

0:04:01.450,0:04:03.350
True,
the problem isn't in my head.

0:04:03.550,0:04:05.390
It's a well-known medical condition,

0:04:05.390,0:04:08.630
described by American cardiologist Bernadine Healy

0:04:08.630,0:04:10.390
in 1991,

0:04:10.470,0:04:11.750
known as "Yentl Syndrome."

0:04:11.850,0:04:13.170
That is,

0:04:13.170,0:04:17.130
if a woman received appropriate care,

0:04:18.040,0:04:19.000
one can assume

0:04:19.000,0:04:19.940
it was because

0:04:20.060,0:04:22.320
the disease progressed in a manner characteristic

0:04:22.320,0:04:22.900
of men.

0:04:23.080,0:04:24.960
Apparently, there weren't many women playing tennis

0:04:24.960,0:04:25.900
at the time

0:04:25.920,0:04:26.960
who had slipped discs.

0:04:27.160,0:04:30.680
Of course, "Yentl Syndrome" refers to the famous

0:04:30.680,0:04:31.780
Barbara Streisand film

0:04:31.840,0:04:32.440
about a girl

0:04:32.440,0:04:34.200
who disguised herself as a man

0:04:34.200,0:04:35.320
to study the Talmud.

0:04:35.880,0:04:38.920
Today, however, I'm reading Elinor Cleghorn's book

0:04:39.060,0:04:39.760
"Unwell Women,"

0:04:39.920,0:04:41.840
recently translated into Polish

0:04:41.840,0:04:42.600
as "Defective,"

0:04:42.740,0:04:44.040
which has just been published here.

0:04:44.180,0:04:47.760
The British government has initiated a program to improve

0:04:47.760,0:04:48.400
women's health—

0:04:48.400,0:04:48.880
what

0:04:48.880,0:04:50.340
is this program supposed to involve?

0:04:50.360,0:04:53.460
It invited women to complete a survey

0:04:53.460,0:04:55.500
about their experiences with the health service

0:04:55.500,0:04:56.840
, and for the first time, the government acknowledged

0:04:56.840,0:05:00.000
that medical care and medicine are more focused

0:05:00.000,0:05:00.960
on men.

0:05:01.340,0:05:03.440
Elinor Cleghorn's book is very interesting.

0:05:03.640,0:05:05.740
Her research revealed

0:05:05.740,0:05:07.040
a particular disregard for pain,

0:05:07.200,0:05:08.480
a lack of seriousness.

0:05:08.540,0:05:08.900
Marta,

0:05:08.900,0:05:09.540
pain is something

0:05:09.580,0:05:10.860
you were involved in,

0:05:10.860,0:05:12.500
right?
Diseases

0:05:12.500,0:05:13.840
that have now proven to be—

0:05:13.900,0:05:14.260
we know—

0:05:14.260,0:05:16.720
chronic and devastating,

0:05:16.720,0:05:17.680
especially for women,

0:05:17.680,0:05:19.300
such as lupus,

0:05:19.400,0:05:20.600
breast cancer,

0:05:20.600,0:05:22.160
thyroid disorders, and osteoporosis.

0:05:22.920,0:05:26.080
And I'm talking about examples of the mass neglect of

0:05:26.080,0:05:26.800
women's health problems—

0:05:26.800,0:05:29.040
because they were the ones reporting them—

0:05:29.040,0:05:30.500
and their inclusion in

0:05:30.560,0:05:34.280
what Cleghorn calls "imperfect healthcare,"

0:05:34.280,0:05:36.820
even within the framework of existing

0:05:36.820,0:05:39.120
public health institutions.

0:05:39.560,0:05:40.660
Well, I could say

0:05:40.700,0:05:42.780
I could become one of the cases

0:05:42.780,0:05:44.100
collected and described by the British woman,

0:05:44.180,0:05:44.680
right?

0:05:44.740,0:05:46.520
It's a joke,

0:05:46.520,0:05:49.200
but I'll now, of course, supplement this autoethnography

0:05:49.200,0:05:50.620
with my own cultural interests,

0:05:50.620,0:05:52.140
and I'm one of those people who's curious about everything.

0:05:52.330,0:05:54.790
I didn't like the fact

0:05:54.830,0:05:56.930
that our disciplines are so narrowly defined

0:05:56.930,0:05:58.390
that we have to limit ourselves,

0:05:58.390,0:05:59.730
to confine ourselves to a discipline.

0:06:00.050,0:06:00.890
I remember the days

0:06:00.890,0:06:04.290
when interdisciplinary research projects began to be promoted

0:06:04.290,0:06:06.650
, and when it came time to submit

0:06:06.650,0:06:07.250
the project.

0:06:07.250,0:06:09.110
There was a place to click

0:06:09.130,0:06:11.010
"proceed," and then you had to

0:06:11.010,0:06:13.810
indicate the disciplinary affiliation of the research

0:06:13.810,0:06:16.410
and also the disciplinary affiliation of the people assessing the project.

0:06:16.550,0:06:17.790
And that was where everything ended,

0:06:17.810,0:06:19.770
in terms of interdisciplinarity ,

0:06:19.770,0:06:21.010
and interdisciplinarity ended.

0:06:21.770,0:06:24.470
Well, Italian studies was definitely too narrow for me, and

0:06:24.470,0:06:26.110
perhaps literary studies in general,

0:06:26.190,0:06:29.950
but a time of professional independence came

0:06:30.010,0:06:31.570
when I could afford

0:06:31.630,0:06:34.650
to engage with topics that had little

0:06:34.650,0:06:35.990
in common with Italian studies.

0:06:36.030,0:06:39.730
And I began reading texts devoted precisely

0:06:39.730,0:06:41.150
to issues

0:06:41.150,0:06:42.890
that appealed to my curiosity and

0:06:42.890,0:06:43.890
interests:

0:06:43.890,0:06:46.770
cultural representations of the experience of illness,

0:06:47.500,0:06:49.700
the problems of medicine as a discipline,

0:06:49.740,0:06:51.460
its practitioners,

0:06:51.460,0:06:52.520
its representatives,

0:06:52.520,0:06:53.900
because health medicine and

0:06:54.080,0:06:56.160
medical humanities also encompass all

0:06:56.160,0:06:56.940
workers,

0:06:56.940,0:06:58.720
not just healthcare professionals

0:06:58.740,0:07:00.320
but also medical histories.

0:07:00.340,0:07:01.140
And observing

0:07:01.140,0:07:02.240
how medical humanities, especially narrative medicine,

0:07:02.340,0:07:02.840
or

0:07:02.940,0:07:04.440
as I propose to call it

0:07:04.500,0:07:05.680
Przemysław Czapliński , is developing

0:07:05.700,0:07:06.600
,
or

0:07:06.660,0:07:09.040
perhaps it is already shrinking,

0:07:09.100,0:07:10.920
is it true,

0:07:11.770,0:07:12.270
retreating,

0:07:12.310,0:07:14.510
not yet

0:07:14.530,0:07:15.710
established,

0:07:15.790,0:07:17.190
Communication medicine.

0:07:17.710,0:07:18.610
It seems to me

0:07:18.630,0:07:22.010
that we are dealing more with the retreat of

0:07:22.010,0:07:25.710
this as yet undefined

0:07:25.710,0:07:27.070
disciplinary affiliation,

0:07:27.070,0:07:28.650
rather than its development.

0:07:28.730,0:07:33.460
This is what one might conclude from my observation of the situation in several countries

0:07:33.460,0:07:34.200
.

0:07:34.240,0:07:36.140
Has this communication aspect somehow become more

0:07:36.140,0:07:36.760
dominant?

0:07:36.940,0:07:37.500
I think

0:07:37.520,0:07:39.980
this name is more appropriate than narrative medicine.

0:07:40.000,0:07:42.880
I mean, the name narrative medicine was

0:07:42.880,0:07:44.220
proposed by Rita Charon,

0:07:44.300,0:07:45.380
of course, we know that.

0:07:45.620,0:07:47.780
Here, it could be limited to the use of narrative,

0:07:48.380,0:07:50.160
to developing the awareness and

0:07:50.160,0:07:51.240
sensitivity of doctors and

0:07:51.260,0:07:53.620
students in teaching and medical practice.

0:07:54.040,0:07:55.480
But she probably

0:07:55.500,0:07:56.020
misunderstood

0:07:56.060,0:07:59.160
the literary text and its use.

0:07:59.220,0:08:00.980
Maybe it's not necessarily about narrative,

0:08:01.040,0:08:02.040
maybe it's about communication,

0:08:02.040,0:08:04.700
because it's communication based on careful reading

0:08:04.700,0:08:07.340
and attentive listening that

0:08:07.340,0:08:08.100
young practitioners are supposed to learn.

0:08:08.400,0:08:09.740
That would be the main point,

0:08:09.740,0:08:10.540
wouldn't it,
in this relationship.

0:08:11.080,0:08:12.600
[Marta Chojnacka-Kuraś] I'm curious,

0:08:12.600,0:08:14.880
which texts did you read first?

0:08:15.140,0:08:17.020
Because, as I just mentioned,

0:08:17.080,0:08:19.660
I found narrative medicine

0:08:19.660,0:08:21.020
through my doctor friends.

0:08:21.390,0:08:22.750
So, from that perspective, it turns out.

0:08:22.810,0:08:24.470
However, it turned out

0:08:24.550,0:08:26.910
that there are many literary scholars

0:08:26.930,0:08:30.970
who have found Rita Charon, her writings, through

0:08:30.970,0:08:31.390
other avenues

0:08:31.390,0:08:32.150
.

0:08:32.230,0:08:32.590
Were

0:08:32.590,0:08:34.610
these her publications,

0:08:34.610,0:08:36.289
or perhaps some other texts?

0:08:36.330,0:08:39.750
And in general,
is narrative medicine being implemented

0:08:39.750,0:08:43.090
and developed in other countries

0:08:43.090,0:08:43.650
than just the United States

0:08:43.650,0:08:46.490
?
Because the American context seems to be the most talked

0:08:46.490,0:08:48.250
about here,

0:08:48.250,0:08:50.110
and yet it's probably not the only one.

0:08:50.730,0:08:53.330
[Hanna Serkowska]... something like this two-pronged connection came together.

0:08:53.610,0:08:55.630
On the one hand, it was funny,

0:08:55.730,0:08:56.410
amusing,

0:08:56.450,0:08:57.790
almost anecdotal.

0:08:58.230,0:08:58.870
While

0:08:58.890,0:09:01.770
I was writing and gathering material for this

0:09:01.770,0:09:02.950
book about old age and dementia,

0:09:03.050,0:09:04.690
I became interested in

0:09:04.730,0:09:05.910
what was happening in the Netherlands,

0:09:05.910,0:09:08.130
when I was there in that area and saw

0:09:08.130,0:09:09.570
how incredibly active they were.

0:09:09.790,0:09:10.550
I heard from someone

0:09:10.570,0:09:12.650
that there was something called the Alzheimer's Cafe.

0:09:12.930,0:09:14.510
You don't have to sign up,

0:09:14.550,0:09:15.430
you

0:09:15.470,0:09:16.410
can just go to a meeting.

0:09:16.410,0:09:17.290
I was incredibly curious to see

0:09:17.290,0:09:19.850
what an Alzheimer's Cafe was like, I think.

0:09:19.950,0:09:21.290
And it turns out

0:09:21.410,0:09:22.670
that these were ordinary meetings back then, over 10 years ago,

0:09:22.750,0:09:26.490
with people

0:09:26.490,0:09:29.330
who were already experts,

0:09:29.330,0:09:30.570
having gone through the process

0:09:30.870,0:09:33.210
of caring for someone with dementia.

0:09:34.150,0:09:35.870
Whether it's a formal

0:09:35.870,0:09:36.650
or informal caregiver,

0:09:36.670,0:09:37.610
it
doesn't matter,

0:09:37.670,0:09:39.570
but they already had a certain amount of knowledge and experience

0:09:39.570,0:09:41.710
and were eager to share it with others.

0:09:41.750,0:09:43.810
It's incredibly active and vibrant there,

0:09:43.810,0:09:45.010
in every municipality,

0:09:45.010,0:09:47.390
in every

0:09:47.390,0:09:49.930
small neighborhood, there are several such cafes.

0:09:49.930,0:09:51.810
And that simply made me realize

0:09:51.850,0:09:54.370
that we're truly in a completely different phase of development,

0:09:54.390,0:09:54.930
because I don't think

0:09:54.950,0:09:56.450
our statistics are any different

0:09:56.470,0:09:59.210
when it comes to the incidence of various diseases

0:09:59.210,0:09:59.870
, especially these ones.

0:10:01.030,0:10:01.530
However,

0:10:01.610,0:10:02.830
there's so much being done there,

0:10:02.830,0:10:03.750
isn't it,
for these people.

0:10:03.830,0:10:06.870
The Alzheimer Nederland website

0:10:06.870,0:10:09.390
lists 100 different activities and initiatives for people with dementia.

0:10:09.790,0:10:11.110
There are government ads

0:10:11.110,0:10:11.910
that show

0:10:11.950,0:10:12.670
what to do

0:10:12.750,0:10:14.550
when you see someone

0:10:14.550,0:10:16.090
behaving strangely on the street

0:10:16.110,0:10:16.790
, lost,

0:10:16.830,0:10:17.530
searching
,

0:10:17.530,0:10:18.670
looking around,

0:10:18.730,0:10:19.390
not knowing where to go.

0:10:19.570,0:10:22.690
They're incredibly active in this regard.

0:10:22.750,0:10:25.150
And when I started to research all this,

0:10:25.150,0:10:25.670
to dig deeper,

0:10:25.670,0:10:26.570
to collect materials,

0:10:26.610,0:10:27.030
I saw

0:10:27.030,0:10:29.710
There are also non-professional galleries

0:10:29.900,0:10:32.900
where reproductions of

0:10:32.900,0:10:35.400
very iconic works are displayed, and where you can go with someone

0:10:35.400,0:10:37.240
who was previously interested

0:10:37.240,0:10:37.640
in art history, for example.

0:10:37.640,0:10:40.580
This contact activates

0:10:40.580,0:10:41.160
some kind of memory centers,

0:10:41.180,0:10:41.680
right?

0:10:41.900,0:10:43.040
Greater well-being,

0:10:43.040,0:10:44.460
less anxiety in the person

0:10:44.680,0:10:45.520
suffering from dementia.

0:10:45.560,0:10:45.880
Of course,

0:10:45.880,0:10:47.700
this lasts five to ten years, even

0:10:47.700,0:10:49.100
after the first symptoms.

0:10:49.340,0:10:50.960
The Memorial Museum in Rotterdam,

0:10:50.980,0:10:52.320
there are a lot of these

0:10:52.320,0:10:52.860
truly interesting things.

0:10:52.860,0:10:54.620
Maybe I'll have time to return to it.

0:10:55.290,0:10:56.550
It turned out that

0:10:56.550,0:10:58.930
all of this originated in the United States and England.

0:10:59.370,0:11:01.650
And I stumbled upon the first journals

0:11:01.650,0:11:03.950
devoted to humanistic medicine.

0:11:03.950,0:11:05.310
Then came Charon,

0:11:05.350,0:11:06.990
then an attempt to translate her book.

0:11:07.030,0:11:07.730
It didn't work,

0:11:07.770,0:11:09.410
because again, there were formats

0:11:09.410,0:11:10.390
that blocked it.

0:11:10.510,0:11:12.850
I started with articles on humanistic medicine,

0:11:13.630,0:11:15.990
which were published in professional

0:11:15.990,0:11:17.630
American and English journals.

0:11:17.650,0:11:18.530
And only then,

0:11:18.890,0:11:20.710
years
later, did it come time

0:11:20.770,0:11:22.230
to start reading books,

0:11:22.230,0:11:23.750
those maladaptive stories

0:11:23.770,0:11:24.530
I now read

0:11:24.590,0:11:26.870
with such interest, and collecting them.

0:11:27.330,0:11:32.410
But this American woman is strongly emphasizing herself in

0:11:32.410,0:11:33.530
this trend.

0:11:33.610,0:11:37.110
[Marta Chojnacka-Kuraś] But narrative medicine is also developing

0:11:37.110,0:11:38.310
in Italy,

0:11:38.370,0:11:39.130
isn't it?

0:11:39.470,0:11:44.780
And could you tell us a bit about it?

0:11:44.900,0:11:46.740
I have the impression

0:11:46.740,0:11:50.260
that in our country,

0:11:50.260,0:11:52.420
humanities scholars are most interested in narrative medicine.

0:11:52.460,0:11:55.280
They see it as perhaps an

0:11:55.280,0:11:56.520
interpretive context.

0:11:57.000,0:12:00.210
However, when it comes to the presence of

0:12:00.210,0:12:02.390
narrative medicine in medicine itself,

0:12:02.510,0:12:03.910
even in the academic community,

0:12:03.970,0:12:04.670
in teaching,

0:12:04.770,0:12:07.750
it's not yet so visible.

0:12:07.890,0:12:09.730
And is it in other European countries,

0:12:09.730,0:12:10.730
in Italy, for example?

0:12:11.730,0:12:15.330
[Hanna Serkowska] Well, the Netherlands is obviously much more

0:12:15.330,0:12:18.390
advanced than Italy or us

0:12:18.430,0:12:21.090
when it comes to the presence of this type of topic,

0:12:21.130,0:12:22.590
even at the level of courses,

0:12:22.590,0:12:25.730
in the curricula on medical campuses,

0:12:25.750,0:12:26.810
or even in medical schools in general,

0:12:26.830,0:12:27.190
right?

0:12:27.190,0:12:28.270
I looked at Utrecht.

0:12:28.330,0:12:29.970
And here, they don't deal with that;

0:12:30.010,0:12:31.370
of course, humanities scholars do.

0:12:31.430,0:12:33.550
For example, in Maastricht,

0:12:33.550,0:12:34.030
there's a researcher named Aagje Swinnen,

0:12:34.030,0:12:35.770
who's been an expert for years.

0:12:35.770,0:12:36.250
I knew her

0:12:36.250,0:12:37.970
when I was writing that book on dementia.

0:12:38.070,0:12:40.390
She's been working on things like the function of poetry and

0:12:40.390,0:12:42.330
art therapy for 15 years.

0:12:42.410,0:12:44.350
She does fantastic work,

0:12:44.350,0:12:45.110
and she's an English major,

0:12:45.190,0:12:45.630
right?

0:12:45.630,0:12:46.770
So, more or less like me,

0:12:46.810,0:12:47.830
like mine, that's how

0:12:47.830,0:12:49.430
her path to this was.

0:12:49.490,0:12:51.890
But I set myself the task of

0:12:51.890,0:12:52.410
seeing

0:12:52.410,0:12:54.510
if this is working in medical faculties.

0:12:54.630,0:12:55.130
Exactly.

0:12:55.820,0:12:58.520
And in Utrecht, there's

0:12:58.520,0:12:58.900
something like

0:12:58.900,0:13:00.320
I listed:

0:13:00.320,0:13:02.760
Ethics, Technology, and Artificial Intelligence in Medicine,

0:13:02.820,0:13:04.520
or Communication in Hospitals,

0:13:04.520,0:13:06.620
or Narrative in Treatment Practice,

0:13:06.780,0:13:08.500
History and Philosophy in Medicine, or

0:13:08.540,0:13:09.800
Humanist Medicine.

0:13:09.860,0:13:11.780
Unfortunately, the OSIRIS program,

0:13:11.800,0:13:14.740
which corresponds to our USOS,

0:13:14.780,0:13:15.800
blocks at a certain point

0:13:15.840,0:13:17.700
when you're not registered as a student

0:13:17.700,0:13:19.140
, and you can't see anything further.

0:13:19.400,0:13:21.380
But for example, I really liked

0:13:21.380,0:13:24.520
the course on humanistic medicine offered there,

0:13:25.130,0:13:27.030
advertised even before the gate,

0:13:27.030,0:13:30.590
led by an interdisciplinary team of lecturers on the topic of,

0:13:30.610,0:13:31.030
note:

0:13:31.030,0:13:34.490
vaccines, and including people

0:13:34.490,0:13:35.490
involved in the history of medicine,

0:13:35.550,0:13:37.310
ethics, and current medical knowledge.

0:13:37.740,0:13:39.300
This is something very hot,

0:13:39.300,0:13:39.700
because

0:13:39.700,0:13:43.060
it has been brought to the headlines

0:13:43.060,0:13:44.800
by our recent pandemic.

0:13:44.800,0:13:47.180
And at the same time, a historical perspective,

0:13:47.300,0:13:48.460
an ethical perspective,

0:13:48.460,0:13:49.920
and contemporary medical knowledge.

0:13:49.940,0:13:50.440
Therefore,

0:13:50.520,0:13:51.860
a very broad perspective,

0:13:51.860,0:13:52.180
right?

0:13:52.180,0:13:53.940
And they also read all sorts of things there.

0:13:54.000,0:13:55.540
I saw there was even a comic book,

0:13:55.620,0:13:56.300
also some cool,

0:13:56.300,0:13:56.800
cool stuff.

0:13:57.320,0:13:59.420
They also have a briefing form,

0:13:59.460,0:14:00.220
I'd call it

0:14:00.220,0:14:00.760
a blog.

0:14:00.760,0:14:03.420
You can sign up as a medical student

0:14:03.420,0:14:05.680
and once every two weeks you'll receive a text or a work of art

0:14:06.090,0:14:06.870
to read

0:14:06.870,0:14:07.470
or look at,

0:14:07.470,0:14:09.630
with a few questions after reading.

0:14:09.630,0:14:10.850
You have to answer these questions,

0:14:10.870,0:14:11.370
something like that.

0:14:11.850,0:14:13.330
Completely voluntary, of course.

0:14:13.610,0:14:14.690
Optional activities.

0:14:14.930,0:14:15.530
I suspect

0:14:15.530,0:14:16.350
so.

0:14:17.390,0:14:20.410
There's a fantastic

0:14:20.410,0:14:21.310
Memorial

0:14:22.630,0:14:24.290
Museum in Rotterdam,

0:14:24.370,0:14:26.090
which houses objects,

0:14:26.090,0:14:26.710
images,

0:14:26.730,0:14:27.310
smells, and

0:14:27.310,0:14:28.810
sounds from the 20th century,

0:14:28.910,0:14:33.450
rooms decorated in period style,

0:14:33.470,0:14:34.350
from years gone by.

0:14:34.530,0:14:37.270
For example, a bicycle license plate—

0:14:37.290,0:14:39.190
because back then, bicycles had license plates, and

0:14:39.230,0:14:40.370
you paid tax on them,

0:14:40.370,0:14:41.130
just like cars—

0:14:41.760,0:14:43.560
a bicycle repair tool kit—

0:14:43.580,0:14:45.000
something no one uses anymore,

0:14:45.020,0:14:45.520
right?

0:14:45.740,0:14:47.260
Some old sewing machine,

0:14:47.760,0:14:48.100
a stove,

0:14:48.100,0:14:49.320
a wood-burning heater

0:14:49.320,0:14:49.780
, a coal-burning heater

0:14:49.780,0:14:50.200
, a diesel heater,

0:14:50.200,0:14:50.660
food,

0:14:50.660,0:14:52.760
ration coupons from the war.

0:14:52.820,0:14:54.740
Well, for us, it would probably be Frania's washing machine.

0:14:54.840,0:14:55.760
But it turns out

0:14:55.800,0:14:56.220
that someone

0:14:56.220,0:14:59.160
who visits a memorial museum in Rotterdam

0:14:59.160,0:15:01.060
—and usually, of course, these rooms are

0:15:01.060,0:15:03.160
designed and objects are displayed in such a

0:15:03.220,0:15:04.280
way that you can touch them,

0:15:04.280,0:15:05.480
play with them,

0:15:05.600,0:15:08.160
try to fix that bicycle,

0:15:08.200,0:15:08.700
right?

0:15:08.820,0:15:10.020
We touch these objects,

0:15:10.020,0:15:12.360
and it actually improves well-being,

0:15:12.400,0:15:13.620
improves the state of mind,

0:15:13.780,0:15:16.520
significantly reduces anxiety levels.

0:15:16.600,0:15:17.200
The people there

0:15:17.220,0:15:20.180
spend time in these rooms.

0:15:20.180,0:15:21.940
They derive significant benefits from it.

0:15:22.020,0:15:22.800
In Italy,

0:15:22.800,0:15:23.800
if you don't mind,

0:15:23.800,0:15:24.720
I'll move on to Italy;

0:15:24.740,0:15:25.720
it would seem

0:15:25.740,0:15:28.300
that the situation should be fine.

0:15:29.020,0:15:31.420
And here, unfortunately, I have to disappoint you.

0:15:31.500,0:15:32.000
Italians,

0:15:32.140,0:15:33.560
excuse the generalization,

0:15:33.680,0:15:35.760
but I've perceived them for years

0:15:35.760,0:15:36.380
as a very inventive nation.

0:15:36.720,0:15:39.120
And when it comes to the connections between illness,

0:15:39.120,0:15:39.620
medicine, and

0:15:39.620,0:15:40.360
the humanities,

0:15:40.380,0:15:42.020
they have their pioneering achievements.

0:15:42.040,0:15:42.500
I remember

0:15:42.500,0:15:43.720
hearing about it,

0:15:43.720,0:15:44.640
I knew about such initiatives.

0:15:44.900,0:15:48.400
Someone brought me such leaflets from Italy.

0:15:48.740,0:15:51.120
The whole campaign was called Poesia Presente,

0:15:51.260,0:15:52.240
or Present Poetry.

0:15:52.240,0:15:54.160
And it's about poetry present in a hospital.

0:15:54.340,0:15:54.940
Where

0:15:55.020,0:15:56.300
there are closed wards,

0:15:56.320,0:15:57.860
wards for the seriously ill,

0:15:57.860,0:15:58.980
leaflets are planted.

0:15:59.440,0:16:00.600
There's no author, for example,

0:16:00.600,0:16:01.280
but maybe there is an author,

0:16:02.080,0:16:04.160
and this poetry takes on a life of its own

0:16:04.160,0:16:05.160
because it ends up in someone's hands,

0:16:05.220,0:16:05.960
someone does something with it,

0:16:06.040,0:16:07.420
this poetry does something to someone,

0:16:07.540,0:16:07.880
right?

0:16:07.880,0:16:09.160
Well, these are charming ideas,

0:16:09.220,0:16:10.040
wonderful ideas,

0:16:10.060,0:16:10.860
Italian ideas,

0:16:11.880,0:16:14.160
fantastic happenings of this kind.

0:16:14.160,0:16:14.860
Or doctors,

0:16:15.380,0:16:16.360
who are very active,

0:16:16.360,0:16:18.420
but it's all very pioneering,

0:16:18.480,0:16:20.060
meaning also very "guerrilla."

0:16:20.060,0:16:21.400
It's not a systematic system.

0:16:21.640,0:16:23.820
For example, they use some funds

0:16:23.840,0:16:26.100
they have for strictly biomedical research

0:16:26.120,0:16:28.740
to establish a medical-humanities journal.

0:16:28.740,0:16:30.000
Or poetry by patients.

0:16:30.020,0:16:32.580
And there, for example, patients from that ward

0:16:32.580,0:16:33.900
can publish their works.

0:16:33.980,0:16:34.920
I know of such cases,

0:16:34.920,0:16:35.420
even two myself.

0:16:36.600,0:16:39.320
However, when it comes to senior care,

0:16:39.340,0:16:39.860
it seems

0:16:39.900,0:16:44.460
that Italians are leading the way in Europe

0:16:44.460,0:16:46.840
in placing their parents in care facilities.

0:16:46.920,0:16:47.700
I'm not saying

0:16:47.720,0:16:48.940
it's not like that in the Netherlands.

0:16:48.940,0:16:50.120
We know what it's like here,

0:16:50.160,0:16:50.660
right?

0:16:50.720,0:16:52.840
In the Netherlands, of course, nursing homes.

0:16:52.840,0:16:53.540
They also exist,

0:16:53.720,0:16:56.780
but the Netherlands has been trying for years to promote

0:16:56.820,0:16:58.940
this attitude of active,

0:16:58.940,0:16:59.880
independent seniors:

0:16:59.880,0:17:01.880
"Stay at home as long as you can,

0:17:01.900,0:17:04.560
as long as you can

0:17:04.560,0:17:05.200
manage everything yourself."

0:17:06.000,0:17:06.500
If not,

0:17:06.500,0:17:08.900
there's a very active

0:17:08.900,0:17:09.300
network of neighborhood support.

0:17:09.300,0:17:10.160
I mean, families

0:17:10.160,0:17:11.640
who live around the family

0:17:11.640,0:17:12.480
where there's a sick person,

0:17:12.500,0:17:13.280
I'm talking about dementia—

0:17:13.300,0:17:14.839
that's a case study

0:17:15.020,0:17:16.160
that interests me—

0:17:16.240,0:17:18.260
they're really supportive.

0:17:18.520,0:17:20.839
And then there's the typically Dutch solution,

0:17:20.880,0:17:21.960
everything in miniature.

0:17:22.099,0:17:24.180
If your parent is so ill

0:17:24.200,0:17:25.359
that you need to care for them, and

0:17:25.480,0:17:27.560
you don't have time to drive to the other end of town—

0:17:27.680,0:17:28.540
order or

0:17:28.540,0:17:29.560
rent a house or

0:17:29.560,0:17:30.040
container,

0:17:30.040,0:17:30.960
and place it in your garden.

0:17:31.000,0:17:33.480
There, your now-dependent parent

0:17:33.480,0:17:34.100
will still live alone.

0:17:34.540,0:17:36.560
You won't have to travel

0:17:36.560,0:17:37.060
across town to see them.

0:17:37.060,0:17:39.820
And that house or container is erected by a crane

0:17:39.820,0:17:41.660
in the garden and then taken away,

0:17:41.680,0:17:42.860
rented for a period of time.

0:17:43.100,0:17:46.200
As for Italian curricula

0:17:46.200,0:17:48.880
covering humanistic medicine

0:17:48.880,0:17:49.620
or narrative medicine,

0:17:49.700,0:17:50.820
you'll be surprised,

0:17:50.820,0:17:51.580
but there are none at all.

0:17:52.020,0:17:53.240
There are rudimentary,

0:17:53.260,0:17:55.140
optional offers.

0:17:55.340,0:17:57.940
Surprisingly, there's very little of this at universities.

0:17:58.000,0:18:00.060
The first seminars and conferences

0:18:00.060,0:18:01.000
were, of course, conceived in Bologna,

0:18:01.120,0:18:02.280
the oldest university,

0:18:04.280,0:18:05.440
about 15 years ago.

0:18:05.520,0:18:07.660
They all somehow faded away

0:18:07.660,0:18:09.320
after a few seminars,

0:18:09.320,0:18:11.280
following the idea of ​​forming research teams.

0:18:11.300,0:18:12.820
There are still traces of them somewhere online,

0:18:12.820,0:18:15.260
but it hasn't really been active for over a decade.

0:18:15.580,0:18:16.340
It was clear

0:18:16.400,0:18:18.200
that these interests had really taken off back then

0:18:18.200,0:18:18.700
,

0:18:19.150,0:18:20.430
let

0:18:20.430,0:18:20.930
's say.

0:18:21.230,0:18:22.990
And the only university

0:18:22.990,0:18:25.890
offering a "master's" in medical humanities

0:18:25.890,0:18:29.370
is the Naples-based Suor Orsola Benincasa University.

0:18:29.490,0:18:31.710
It has the only such "master's" in Italy.

0:18:31.850,0:18:35.010
I've been there twice on a

0:18:35.010,0:18:36.850
"visiting" program.
I really enjoyed working there.

0:18:36.930,0:18:41.310
Now, a research team

0:18:41.310,0:18:42.330
related to humanistic medicine

0:18:42.890,0:18:43.830
has been established in Modena.

0:18:44.770,0:18:46.490
And the supervisor and

0:18:46.490,0:18:48.390
originator of this initiative is Stefano Calabrese,

0:18:48.510,0:18:50.810
arguably the most important name in Italy

0:18:50.810,0:18:52.630
when it comes to various

0:18:52.630,0:18:55.350
medical-humanities initiatives, conferences, and ideas.

0:18:55.930,0:18:57.310
Of course, Italianist,

0:18:57.390,0:18:59.410
so I'm talking about literary scholars right now,

0:18:59.410,0:19:02.790
because it's both in Naples, and it's kind of outside of medicine,

0:19:02.790,0:19:03.290
and in Modena.

0:19:03.530,0:19:05.050
In Bologna,

0:19:05.050,0:19:07.670
which had this idea, and doctors there

0:19:07.670,0:19:08.350
initially took it up,

0:19:08.390,0:19:10.250
but then it all kind of died down.

0:19:10.820,0:19:11.980
I just

0:19:12.120,0:19:12.640
discovered,

0:19:12.680,0:19:14.520
because Stefano Calabrese was telling me about it,

0:19:14.680,0:19:17.540
that there's something called Graphic Medicine.

0:19:17.940,0:19:18.400
I thought to myself,

0:19:18.400,0:19:18.720
okay,

0:19:18.720,0:19:19.740
but what is Graphic Medicine?

0:19:19.940,0:19:22.140
What is this graphic medicine program doing

0:19:22.140,0:19:22.660
in Bologna,

0:19:22.940,0:19:25.540
at the Faculty of Medicine,

0:19:25.540,0:19:26.760
at the Campus Medico?

0:19:27.400,0:19:28.500
And it turns out

0:19:28.500,0:19:29.000
that it's

0:19:30.340,0:19:31.120
a seminar—

0:19:31.260,0:19:32.800
I don't even know how to describe it,

0:19:32.800,0:19:33.800
what kind,

0:19:34.020,0:19:35.140
but it's not a subject, a discipline—

0:19:35.630,0:19:39.850
it was established at the anatomy center,

0:19:39.850,0:19:42.750
the Centro di Anatomia Umana, University of Bologna.

0:19:42.850,0:19:46.030
Of course, the idea is quite old,

0:19:46.030,0:19:46.870
from 2000,

0:19:47.020,0:19:48.180
I think it was the seventh year—

0:19:48.260,0:19:49.380
I don't know
if it's the seventh

0:19:49.400,0:19:49.920
or the twelfth,

0:19:49.960,0:19:50.920
we checked the date.

0:19:51.020,0:19:51.520
The fifteenth.

0:19:52.480,0:19:54.480
It's about graphic medicine.

0:19:54.480,0:19:56.620
The first manifesto here is

0:19:56.620,0:19:58.700
the Polish-sounding name MK Czerwiec.

0:19:58.700,0:20:01.260
Among the founders, we have a cartoonist,

0:20:01.380,0:20:02.220
a nurse,

0:20:02.240,0:20:02.720
a doctor,

0:20:02.720,0:20:03.900
a whole team of people

0:20:03.980,0:20:06.280
who practiced graphic medicine.

0:20:07.580,0:20:09.740
But what is the purpose of medicine?

0:20:09.840,0:20:10.800
And that's interesting.

0:20:11.480,0:20:16.360
What is the purpose of this graphic medicine?

0:20:16.360,0:20:18.040
At the Center for Human Anatomy at the University of Bologna?

0:20:18.520,0:20:21.120
Graphic medicine has been introduced as a possible tool

0:20:21.120,0:20:22.880
to stimulate conversations.

0:20:23.460,0:20:25.540
Young students and

0:20:25.540,0:20:28.820
young doctors are learning to use images

0:20:28.820,0:20:29.420
and comics.

0:20:29.460,0:20:30.260
They're learning to draw.

0:20:30.360,0:20:31.320
They're also learning to draw.

0:20:32.060,0:20:36.120
They're learning to talk to patients and their families,

0:20:36.120,0:20:37.020
especially regarding body donation.

0:20:37.830,0:20:38.150
We know

0:20:38.150,0:20:39.030
that body donation,

0:20:39.030,0:20:40.130
in anatomy,

0:20:40.130,0:20:43.050
has a long

0:20:43.050,0:20:43.810
and even criminal history,

0:20:43.810,0:20:47.730
as bodies were stolen from graves at night

0:20:47.730,0:20:48.350
for dissection.

0:20:48.810,0:20:51.150
The bodies of convicts were also, of course, dissected.

0:20:51.270,0:20:54.450
Therefore, medical students in their anatomy program,

0:20:54.450,0:20:55.990
or in these anatomy classes,

0:20:55.990,0:20:59.150
are learning to use comics

0:20:59.150,0:21:00.470
as an innovative method of communication.

0:21:00.970,0:21:02.190
And they're taking advantage of everything

0:21:02.210,0:21:03.530
comics have to offer:

0:21:03.570,0:21:07.150
the high emotional potential,

0:21:07.150,0:21:08.890
the impact on the audience,

0:21:08.950,0:21:10.930
the ease

0:21:10.930,0:21:12.750
with which comics attract, and, it seems,

0:21:12.790,0:21:17.120
the ease of understanding this form of communication.

0:21:17.360,0:21:19.180
For example, in health clinics in Italy,

0:21:19.180,0:21:19.700
this is also interesting.

0:21:19.800,0:21:20.420
Very often,

0:21:20.480,0:21:22.280
what is communicated verbally in our country

0:21:22.280,0:21:25.740
appears there as drawings with verbal commentary.

0:21:25.740,0:21:28.520
It's literally graphic medicine

0:21:28.520,0:21:29.020
in health clinics.

0:21:29.020,0:21:30.100
And it works.

0:21:30.160,0:21:31.280
However, there's nothing like this,

0:21:31.300,0:21:32.220
except for the one

0:21:32.220,0:21:32.960
I just found:

0:21:33.000,0:21:36.040
Graphic Medicine at the Center for Human Anatomy

0:21:36.040,0:21:36.620
in Bologna.

0:21:36.620,0:21:39.920
It's not offered in any other medical program in Italy

0:21:39.920,0:21:40.580
.

0:21:40.960,0:21:42.140
I wonder why?

0:21:42.180,0:21:42.640
I'm looking at it

0:21:42.640,0:21:43.850
because we have a book here.

0:21:43.910,0:21:47.070
We'll provide bibliographical information later,

0:21:47.130,0:21:48.670
maybe even take a photo.

0:21:48.830,0:21:49.950
I thought

0:21:49.950,0:21:52.670
it would be good

0:21:52.670,0:21:54.450
to teach medical students to draw a little,

0:21:54.450,0:21:55.630
maybe not necessarily comics,

0:21:55.650,0:21:57.850
but sometimes when explaining

0:21:57.850,0:21:58.350
things to a patient,

0:21:58.370,0:21:59.090
I don't know,

0:21:59.130,0:22:01.950
like the structure of a nebulizer or something like that,

0:22:02.210,0:22:04.290
they could draw a picture.

0:22:04.290,0:22:06.970
Because if you use this graphic form,

0:22:06.970,0:22:08.910
you can reinforce your message and simply explain something

0:22:08.910,0:22:09.410
that way.

0:22:10.200,0:22:11.560
[Marta Chojnacka-Kuraś] So ​​it turns out

0:22:11.620,0:22:15.520
that we don't lag significantly behind

0:22:15.520,0:22:18.120
in these medical education programs

0:22:18.720,0:22:20.080
. I have the impression,

0:22:20.080,0:22:21.400
as I was reviewing

0:22:21.420,0:22:25.320
what the presence of the humanities

0:22:25.320,0:22:26.540
in medicine actually entails,

0:22:26.560,0:22:27.940
in medical studies,

0:22:27.940,0:22:29.500
in medical programs,

0:22:29.500,0:22:33.100
that the humanities are essentially ethics,

0:22:35.000,0:22:35.500
psychology,

0:22:35.500,0:22:36.000
philosophy—

0:22:36.240,0:22:38.220
humanities understood in this way,

0:22:38.220,0:22:40.620
so of course, students learn

0:22:41.150,0:22:42.050
elements of law,

0:22:42.090,0:22:42.770
ethics,

0:22:42.850,0:22:43.570
bioethics.

0:22:43.890,0:22:44.870
[Hanna Serkowska] If I may interrupt,

0:22:44.910,0:22:45.410
ethics,

0:22:45.410,0:22:45.770
remember,

0:22:45.770,0:22:47.430
had to grapple with the history of medicine,

0:22:47.530,0:22:48.030
something for something.

0:22:48.030,0:22:49.850
Well,
and that's the history of medicine.

0:22:49.870,0:22:51.270
There was also a struggle for this,

0:22:51.310,0:22:52.630
if there are people

0:22:52.690,0:22:53.650
who have been educated,

0:22:53.650,0:22:54.970
have their doctoral students,

0:22:54.990,0:22:56.590
then there's a whole territory

0:22:56.690,0:22:58.150
that exists and

0:22:58.170,0:22:58.770
functions.

0:22:58.890,0:23:01.730
And this history of medicine had to

0:23:01.730,0:23:03.190
advance a bit in terms of hours in the curriculum,

0:23:03.190,0:23:05.110
because you can't extend these programs indefinitely,

0:23:05.130,0:23:06.730
right?
They have to learn first and foremost.

0:23:08.690,0:23:10.150
And ethics had to come in.

0:23:10.780,0:23:12.420
And this was at the expense of the history of medicine.

0:23:12.500,0:23:13.040
So the battles

0:23:13.060,0:23:14.340
that ethicists and

0:23:14.440,0:23:15.080
bioethicists

0:23:15.120,0:23:18.940
fought to gain entry into the medical curriculum

0:23:19.000,0:23:22.880
often took place at the expense of the history of medicine.

0:23:22.940,0:23:23.420
In some universities,

0:23:23.420,0:23:24.060
for example in Germany, I know

0:23:24.140,0:23:25.880
that the history of medicine

0:23:25.880,0:23:26.920
has been closed

0:23:26.920,0:23:27.980
because ethics has come in.

0:23:28.340,0:23:28.760
Well, yes,

0:23:28.760,0:23:29.500
but these are still

0:23:30.190,0:23:31.690
humanities fields,

0:23:31.730,0:23:32.790
but not philological ones,

0:23:32.810,0:23:33.310
right?

0:23:33.410,0:23:34.290
Not literature,

0:23:34.290,0:23:36.670
let alone linguistics or

0:23:36.670,0:23:38.150
cultural studies.

0:23:38.610,0:23:42.010
And now, narrative medicine has a chance

0:23:42.010,0:23:44.610
to turn to narrative as a

0:23:44.610,0:23:45.370
category

0:23:45.570,0:23:47.370
that finds its expression

0:23:47.930,0:23:48.350
in texts,

0:23:48.350,0:23:48.990
in literature,

0:23:49.010,0:23:49.550
but also in

0:23:49.570,0:23:51.810
how we simply talk about our experiences,

0:23:51.810,0:23:52.310
about life.

0:23:52.410,0:23:54.770
So perhaps literary studies,

0:23:54.770,0:23:56.030
linguistics,

0:23:56.050,0:23:58.610
and all these philological aspects of the humanities

0:23:58.610,0:24:02.090
will somehow find a home in the

0:24:02.090,0:24:04.130
medical curriculum at universities.

0:24:04.570,0:24:06.690
I'd also like to mention the concept of medical

0:24:06.690,0:24:07.190
humanities.

0:24:07.850,0:24:11.230
I'm having trouble sorting out some of this terminology.

0:24:11.250,0:24:11.810
I once

0:24:11.950,0:24:15.130
put "medical humanities" into Google Translate

0:24:15.130,0:24:15.630
.

0:24:15.910,0:24:17.230
Translate it into Polish.

0:24:18.199,0:24:19.120
"Humanistic medicine,"

0:24:19.120,0:24:19.820
yes,
aha.

0:24:19.980,0:24:21.220
"medical humanities,

0:24:21.260,0:24:23.260
" "humanistic medicine,"

0:24:23.260,0:24:26.180
and I liked "medical humanities" the most.

0:24:26.200,0:24:27.480
I really liked it,

0:24:27.480,0:24:29.340
although it's unclear what the relationship is supposed to be,

0:24:29.380,0:24:31.640
but it could be "humanistic aspects of medicine,"

0:24:31.720,0:24:34.340
but there are somewhat different meanings that

0:24:34.580,0:24:36.700
appear in these Polish translations,

0:24:36.860,0:24:39.440
and we can also encounter the term

0:24:39.440,0:24:41.080
"humanization of medicine."

0:24:41.630,0:24:42.030
I don't know

0:24:42.030,0:24:43.290
if you've heard this term.

0:24:43.330,0:24:44.770
It's a kind of reaction,

0:24:44.830,0:24:46.710
a response to dehumanization.

0:24:46.770,0:24:47.910
I feel like

0:24:47.910,0:24:50.830
medicine has dehumanized itself and we need to do something

0:24:50.890,0:24:53.510
to humanize it again.

0:24:53.630,0:24:56.390
Although there's a dynamic aspect to this

0:24:56.390,0:24:58.410
goal-oriented approach,

0:24:58.610,0:25:00.470
so there's considerable diversity.

0:25:01.190,0:25:03.130
Linguistically, it's hard to say

0:25:03.270,0:25:06.890
these expressions are identical.

0:25:07.620,0:25:09.160
I'm actually wondering

0:25:09.220,0:25:11.700
what's meant by the term "medical humanities,"

0:25:12.000,0:25:14.980
or how would we say "medical humanities"?

0:25:15.120,0:25:17.680
Well, there's probably a certain project and a certain utopia behind it.

0:25:17.720,0:25:20.700
I mean, there are certainly practical reasons for this,

0:25:20.880,0:25:21.360
such as the fact

0:25:21.360,0:25:24.480
that medicine began to become too expensive,

0:25:24.480,0:25:25.420
not only because

0:25:25.540,0:25:29.680
at some point even

0:25:29.900,0:25:31.820
the doctors practicing it realized

0:25:31.820,0:25:33.420
that for a while,

0:25:34.180,0:25:35.700
there

0:25:35.700,0:25:36.020
had been some neglected areas.

0:25:36.020,0:25:40.360
Perhaps there was excessive medicalization,

0:25:40.380,0:25:42.320
perhaps patriarchal medicine,

0:25:42.320,0:25:43.560
where the patient isn't seen,

0:25:43.560,0:25:45.680
everything is based on facts,

0:25:45.680,0:25:46.740
on test results,

0:25:46.740,0:25:48.360
diagnostics and pharmacology,

0:25:48.500,0:25:50.640
we're interested in their diseased organs,

0:25:50.640,0:25:51.880
right?
Diagnosis for consultation,

0:25:51.880,0:25:52.460
prescription.

0:25:52.460,0:25:55.660
But even that turned out to be too expensive.

0:25:56.200,0:25:58.980
And probably not only separated from the patient and

0:25:58.980,0:25:59.900
dehumanized,

0:26:00.000,0:26:02.020
but also dangerous,

0:26:02.040,0:26:03.440
because until

0:26:03.440,0:26:06.560
the idea of ​​introducing informed patient consent

0:26:06.560,0:26:07.360
was born

0:26:07.500,0:26:10.480
, the patient could complain and sometimes even

0:26:10.480,0:26:11.060
try

0:26:11.460,0:26:14.780
to take legal action.

0:26:15.310,0:26:16.350
So the dissatisfaction,

0:26:16.350,0:26:18.150
complaints, and other consequences

0:26:18.170,0:26:21.190
that the hospital

0:26:21.190,0:26:22.990
where the doctor worked had to grapple with

0:26:23.010,0:26:24.110
were certainly not good,

0:26:24.190,0:26:25.930
but the main goal was probably to

0:26:25.990,0:26:28.770
make these medical choices cheaper,

0:26:28.790,0:26:30.850
because it turned out

0:26:30.910,0:26:32.410
that listening to the patient was enough.

0:26:33.330,0:26:34.050
A few minutes

0:26:34.110,0:26:35.570
to avoid ordering unnecessary

0:26:35.570,0:26:36.810
and very expensive tests.

0:26:37.490,0:26:38.250
And I think

0:26:38.250,0:26:40.670
these were certainly practical considerations.

0:26:40.670,0:26:41.230
I think so,

0:26:41.470,0:26:42.750
my experience tells me so.

0:26:42.890,0:26:43.530
Besides the fact

0:26:43.550,0:26:44.850
that it's obviously a dehumanizing experience;

0:26:45.070,0:26:46.010
the patient feels unheard, and

0:26:46.130,0:26:47.470
what advice can they give,

0:26:47.510,0:26:48.010
they don't know.

0:26:48.050,0:26:50.470
But there are limits and ethics,

0:26:50.510,0:26:53.350
and there are limits to informed consent,

0:26:53.350,0:26:55.790
because how can you comprehensively

0:26:55.790,0:26:58.430
inform a patient in a few minutes

0:26:59.610,0:27:00.650
on such a complex matter

0:27:00.650,0:27:03.190
as the disease and the consequences of a procedure and

0:27:03.190,0:27:04.850
the possibility of various procedures?

0:27:06.870,0:27:08.450
The patient acknowledges

0:27:08.450,0:27:09.510
that they've been informed,

0:27:09.530,0:27:11.130
signs, and so on.

0:27:11.330,0:27:11.830
I think,

0:27:11.830,0:27:13.070
There were practical reasons,

0:27:13.070,0:27:13.430
the two

0:27:13.430,0:27:14.410
I mentioned.

0:27:14.950,0:27:16.830
However, a breakthrough occurred,

0:27:16.830,0:27:20.590
a shift away from the highly technological and

0:27:20.590,0:27:24.650
medicalized medicine, based solely on

0:27:24.650,0:27:26.250
research and

0:27:26.250,0:27:27.450
clinical findings.

0:27:28.280,0:27:30.980
This breakthrough occurred, I think, in the 1980s,

0:27:30.980,0:27:33.340
when the medical community began

0:27:33.340,0:27:36.800
to grapple with various systemic neglect and

0:27:36.800,0:27:41.500
prejudices, patient complaints, and for

0:27:41.500,0:27:44.380
the first time, a whole group of ailments were diagnosed

0:27:44.460,0:27:46.080
that had previously been

0:27:47.290,0:27:47.730
unnamed,

0:27:47.730,0:27:48.990
even unidentified.

0:27:49.050,0:27:51.150
And unidentified ailments are, of course, associated with

0:27:51.150,0:27:51.630
a stigma,

0:27:51.630,0:27:53.510
because if someone complains about something

0:27:53.510,0:27:55.790
and there's no name for it,

0:27:55.850,0:27:56.510
then perhaps

0:27:56.510,0:27:57.830
it's some kind of

0:27:58.330,0:27:59.030
affective disorder.

0:27:59.950,0:28:03.370
So it all kind of matured to the point where,

0:28:03.410,0:28:04.190
in the mid-1980s,

0:28:04.530,0:28:06.770
this initiative came from medicine.

0:28:06.810,0:28:09.130
And it was under this beautiful banner that humanization

0:28:09.130,0:28:10.370
began to take place,

0:28:10.390,0:28:11.570
and humanization is necessary.

0:28:11.590,0:28:14.750
It seems that Rita Charon also rode this wave.

0:28:14.770,0:28:16.610
Perhaps she, as someone

0:28:16.610,0:28:19.690
who was a doctor and taught medicine,

0:28:19.730,0:28:22.030
experienced and saw these needs herself

0:28:22.030,0:28:22.530
.

0:28:22.630,0:28:23.710
This is interesting for us.

0:28:23.730,0:28:25.510
We felt immediately valued.

0:28:25.530,0:28:26.250
We humanists,

0:28:26.330,0:28:27.750
we art historians,

0:28:27.850,0:28:28.910
we poets, we

0:28:29.130,0:28:30.170
filmmakers,

0:28:30.170,0:28:33.270
that medicine suddenly reached out and wanted

0:28:33.270,0:28:34.470
to do something with us.

0:28:34.550,0:28:35.790
I'm talking about the United States, of course.

0:28:36.630,0:28:38.850
And in place of this evidence-based medicine,

0:28:39.030,0:28:41.410
meaning medicine based on facts and

0:28:41.410,0:28:42.010
research,

0:28:42.030,0:28:44.470
there wasn't so much narrative medicine,

0:28:44.510,0:28:46.410
emphasizing narrative,

0:28:46.430,0:28:47.770
as communication,

0:28:47.790,0:28:48.110
right?

0:28:48.110,0:28:50.810
Czapliński is right about communication.

0:28:51.400,0:28:54.520
This narrative medicine should be incorporated,

0:28:54.520,0:28:55.180
absorbed,

0:28:55.200,0:28:57.500
meaning evidence-based medicine should be supplemented with

0:28:57.500,0:29:00.340
narrative medicine, and together they should create EBNM,

0:29:00.400,0:29:02.520
or evidence-based narrative medicine.

0:29:03.160,0:29:04.120
Well, we know

0:29:04.120,0:29:05.620
how it was done.

0:29:06.340,0:29:08.220
Charon has made great contributions in this field,

0:29:08.220,0:29:08.720
really.

0:29:09.140,0:29:10.080
You can go and

0:29:10.080,0:29:11.720
sign up for her seminars,

0:29:11.760,0:29:12.620
her workshops,

0:29:12.620,0:29:14.180
led by her assistants,

0:29:14.180,0:29:15.020
her students.

0:29:15.180,0:29:16.100
Very interesting things,

0:29:16.160,0:29:16.660
really,

0:29:17.580,0:29:19.420
allowing for connection within the group.

0:29:19.460,0:29:20.920
These are even methodologically

0:29:21.180,0:29:22.400
interesting solutions

0:29:22.400,0:29:24.020
when it comes to the narrative skills

0:29:24.040,0:29:24.940
she teaches

0:29:25.370,0:29:27.590
medical students and young doctors.

0:29:27.610,0:29:28.790
And these observations,

0:29:28.810,0:29:29.730
I would say,

0:29:29.730,0:29:32.130
are indeed valuable and worthy of application,

0:29:32.130,0:29:35.650
but with such a busy medical

0:29:35.650,0:29:36.330
curriculum

0:29:36.410,0:29:38.510
, who else can add anything,

0:29:38.510,0:29:40.250
right?
The benefits are also significant,

0:29:40.250,0:29:41.410
although they are intangible.

0:29:41.470,0:29:42.830
And here again, one could say

0:29:42.910,0:29:44.250
that these benefits are overestimated,

0:29:44.370,0:29:44.870
right?

0:29:46.090,0:29:48.870
Students learn this narrative, this attentive

0:29:48.870,0:29:51.450
listening, and this productive reading,

0:29:51.450,0:29:52.670
but how can we measure it?

0:29:52.890,0:29:54.430
Therefore, the incalculability…

0:29:54.470,0:29:58.310
Here again, evidence-based medicine lingers,

0:29:58.330,0:29:59.030
the incalculability and

0:29:59.030,0:30:00.150
immeasurability of these benefits,

0:30:00.170,0:30:02.590
the overload of these extensive curricula,

0:30:02.650,0:30:03.910
and the methodological vagueness.

0:30:03.930,0:30:05.090
From the very beginning,

0:30:05.150,0:30:05.770
you're asking,

0:30:05.890,0:30:06.490
what is this?

0:30:06.630,0:30:07.130
What is it

0:30:07.170,0:30:07.670
?

0:30:07.830,0:30:09.510
Where should you attach it?

0:30:09.730,0:30:10.830
Well, there are advantages,

0:30:11.030,0:30:14.890
but at least the very fact of posing the problem,

0:30:14.890,0:30:17.430
right,
drawing attention to it.

0:30:18.010,0:30:20.850
The fact
that when we talk to someone we also have to look at facial expressions,

0:30:20.930,0:30:21.510
gestures,

0:30:21.510,0:30:22.130
silences,

0:30:22.190,0:30:23.350
the mood of that person,

0:30:23.590,0:30:25.030
anxiety,

0:30:25.030,0:30:26.930
respect for the patient,

0:30:26.990,0:30:28.210
for his experience,

0:30:28.230,0:30:29.350
for his status,

0:30:29.350,0:30:30.230
for his history,

0:30:30.780,0:30:33.200
even for his economic and family situation

0:30:33.200,0:30:33.700
,

0:30:33.700,0:30:37.080
Right?
All of this fosters empathy and

0:30:37.080,0:30:39.380
mindfulness, respect for the patient.

0:30:39.480,0:30:42.100
But when it comes to these non-disciplines,

0:30:42.100,0:30:44.740
because it's unclear what

0:30:44.740,0:30:45.480
narrative medicine is,

0:30:45.500,0:30:48.860
which is part of medical humanities, let's say,

0:30:48.880,0:30:51.940
or if they're somehow trying to talk to each other,

0:30:52.910,0:30:55.130
the interest in this topic is so great

0:30:55.130,0:30:57.950
that if you were to read the literature

0:30:57.970,0:31:00.290
that constantly appears on this topic,

0:31:00.430,0:31:02.430
it would be dizzying.

0:31:02.710,0:31:04.490
Because here we have both narrative medicine

0:31:04.490,0:31:05.590
and maladic discourses

0:31:05.590,0:31:07.070
, and literary scholars,

0:31:07.250,0:31:08.390
linguists,

0:31:08.870,0:31:09.730
cultural scholars,

0:31:09.790,0:31:10.310
historians,

0:31:10.310,0:31:10.910
sociologists,

0:31:10.930,0:31:12.330
gerontologists, bioethicists,

0:31:12.410,0:31:14.210
psychologists, philosophers all

0:31:14.210,0:31:14.750
deal with them

0:31:14.750,0:31:15.850
.
It just doesn't end there.

0:31:16.250,0:31:18.190
And how do we organize it all?

0:31:18.270,0:31:19.830
Therefore, unfortunately, it ends in such

0:31:19.830,0:31:21.030
dizziness.

0:31:21.649,0:31:23.710
Worse still, the situation is "developing,"

0:31:23.790,0:31:27.370
as criminologists say, and the state of research in this

0:31:27.370,0:31:29.710
area is obviously still very

0:31:29.710,0:31:30.250
unfavorable for us,

0:31:30.250,0:31:33.690
for those of us
hoping to familiarize ourselves with this state

0:31:33.690,0:31:34.010
of research.

0:31:34.010,0:31:35.670
And what's worse, it's also fashionable.

0:31:36.010,0:31:36.950
It's also fashionable,

0:31:36.970,0:31:38.350
it's a bit like this shift toward

0:31:38.350,0:31:38.930
the community.

0:31:39.010,0:31:39.470
Exactly,

0:31:39.470,0:31:40.330
these boundaries—

0:31:40.330,0:31:41.750
that's a difficult question,

0:31:41.790,0:31:42.650
but I have the impression

0:31:42.690,0:31:46.610
that narrative medicine somehow has such boundaries

0:31:46.610,0:31:48.790
within medical humanities

0:31:49.050,0:31:52.060
that you can just look at keywords,

0:31:52.100,0:31:55.480
certain names, and you can somehow distinguish it.

0:31:55.520,0:31:57.700
Where medical humanities ends, however,

0:31:57.700,0:31:58.560
is a question

0:31:58.560,0:31:59.580
I don't know

0:31:59.580,0:32:01.500
if anyone can answer.

0:32:01.700,0:32:03.260
Very difficult.

0:32:03.320,0:32:05.400
You touched on many issues.

0:32:05.540,0:32:09.040
Indeed, our medical students are very

0:32:09.040,0:32:09.800
burdened.

0:32:09.920,0:32:10.840
We feel

0:32:10.840,0:32:13.400
we want to equip them even more with

0:32:13.400,0:32:14.500
competencies.

0:32:14.500,0:32:15.460
Perhaps a bit of those

0:32:16.420,0:32:17.720
soft skills,

0:32:17.760,0:32:18.720
like mindfulness.

0:32:18.840,0:32:22.000
At the same time, because we can't be responsible for

0:32:22.000,0:32:24.880
programs, we can't give up something, and as a result, we keep adding

0:32:24.880,0:32:25.540
more,

0:32:25.760,0:32:28.700
right?
But I've really started to like this way of thinking

0:32:28.700,0:32:30.780
about communicative medicine.

0:32:30.780,0:32:32.780
I haven't come across this concept yet,

0:32:32.780,0:32:35.860
but for me, narrative medicine is very

0:32:35.860,0:32:37.040
connected to communication.

0:32:37.200,0:32:38.380
It is communication.

0:32:38.500,0:32:39.460
I think

0:32:39.600,0:32:41.380
someone talks about narrative medicine because

0:32:41.520,0:32:42.840
that's what Rita Charon calls it,

0:32:42.900,0:32:43.780
but remember,

0:32:43.840,0:32:45.560
Rita Charon coined the term,

0:32:45.700,0:32:47.600
but the entire practice before that,

0:32:47.680,0:32:51.420
from the 1970s on—I forget

0:32:51.420,0:32:53.140
the name right now—was the practice of doctors,

0:32:53.140,0:32:54.720
sociologists

0:32:54.780,0:32:57.260
who actually used it in practice.

0:32:57.380,0:32:59.420
She gave it that name, and it was a hit

0:32:59.560,0:33:00.980
.

0:33:01.080,0:33:01.840
Bull's-eye,

0:33:01.860,0:33:04.020
yes.
But narrative medicine,

0:33:04.060,0:33:05.640
communicative medicine.

0:33:06.540,0:33:07.140
That's it.

0:33:07.200,0:33:09.060
And it's not just any separate medicine,

0:33:09.220,0:33:10.500
but a kind of medicine

0:33:10.580,0:33:13.220
that can work through communication.

0:33:13.220,0:33:13.720
Work.

0:33:13.940,0:33:14.440
Right?

0:33:14.600,0:33:15.580
Work better.

0:33:16.960,0:33:18.000
It opened my eyes.

0:33:18.280,0:33:22.220
I felt a strong connection to communication, and suddenly I have it.

0:33:23.640,0:33:24.520
Good,

0:33:24.600,0:33:25.580
thank you very much.

0:33:26.220,0:33:30.200
The "Engaged Polish Studies" podcast series

0:33:30.200,0:33:32.480
was produced as part of the "Polish Studies and the Challenges 

0:33:32.480,0:33:33.520
of the Modern World" project.

0:33:34.160,0:33:36.840
Co-financed from the state budget

0:33:36.840,0:33:39.900
under the Minister of Education and Science's

0:33:39.900,0:33:40.980
Science for Society II program.

0:33:41.060,0:33:43.000
The project number is provided in the description [NdS-II/SP/0264/2024/01].

0:33:43.880,0:33:46.900
We invite you to listen to subsequent episodes

0:33:46.900,0:33:48.940
available on Spreaker,

0:33:49.120,0:33:52.600
Spotify, and YouTube, as well as in the online 

0:33:52.600,0:33:53.420
"Polish Studies Newsletter."

0:33:53.660,0:33:55.460
See you there!