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Cultural disability studies examines the representation of

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disability and people with disabilities.

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We examine disability as a motif, a thematic element, and

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a characterization element, but we also examine disability as a resource

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that can provide new, deeper insights into reality. I hope that my

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work and that of others in this area, not only academic but

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also non-academic, will contribute to this

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broadening of public discourse on disability.

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[Music] We invite you to listen to episodes of

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the newsletter's new podcast series, "Engaged Polish Studies."

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Polish studies are not a helpless observation of the world.

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They provide tools for finding one's way in it, helping to understand it, and preventing exclusion

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and loneliness.

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This is the Polish studies we want to present through our project.

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Engaged Polish Studies.

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[Music]

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Disability and Engagement. Under this guiding principle, we are creating a series of

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conversations with activists, writers, and

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researchers involved in various ways with the topic of disability.

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Welcome to the third episode in our series of conversations about disability and various dimensions

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of engagement, a series that is part of a larger podcast series called

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"Biuletynu Spotkania" (Bulletin Meetings), created as part of a research project on the social

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functions of contemporary humanities, including Polish studies. The project is carried out

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by the Institute of Literary Research of the Polish Academy of Sciences.

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My name is Magda Szarota, and today I'll be speaking with Dr. Katarzyna Ojńska,

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a brilliant, award-winning researcher, English professor, and assistant professor in the Department of English

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Drama, Theatre, and Film at the Institute of English Studies at the University of Lodz. For several years, Kasia

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has been primarily working in cultural

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disability studies. In 2020, Brill Publishing House

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published the volume "Disability and Senses: Strategies of Disability Representation

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and Inclusion in Contemporary Culture," which she co-edited with Maciej

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Wieczorek. A book titled "Theatre and Disability," an anthology of stage and performance texts, will soon be published

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, which

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she edited with Justyna Lipko Konieczna. Together with Monika Kwaśniewska,

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she co-edited the series "Caulification of Performative Arts," published in

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2024-2025 in the Polish journal Didascalia. Besides

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writing academic texts in Polish and English, she has also translated

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books by, among others, Rosemary Garland Thomson for the Teatr 21 Foundation

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, with which she regularly collaborates. She is currently translating

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Alison Kefe's monograph "Feminist Queer Creep" into Polish, and, together with

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Katarina Kolarowa, is working on a special volume for the magazine "TekMace"

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titled "Creep and Queer Intimies." Hello Kasia.

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Hello Magda, and hello to everyone listening.

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First, I'd like to thank you very much for your tremendous work,

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commitment, and such genuine alliance with the disability movement

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. You are undoubtedly one of

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the pioneers of Polish research on and about disability, and I'm not afraid of this word. That's why

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I'm incredibly excited about our conversation. I'd like to start with the core of your

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main activity, the cultural

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studies of disability I mentioned in the introduction, which you're involved in. To introduce

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this question through the Polish context, it's important to emphasize that in Poland, for several years now,

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a group of people working at various universities and in activist circles have been increasingly

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developing a research and cognitive perspective that

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includes the word "disability" in its name, but it appears in

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various configurations. For example, disability studies

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, critical disability studies, or cultural

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studies of disability. For many people, I have the impression that this

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expression is a term that encompasses a

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research ethos for them, but also a catalog of topics and methodologies they consider to be

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priority. For others, I have the impression that these terms are almost

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synonymous. I'm curious about how this plays out in your

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practice, because, as I mentioned earlier, you most often

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use the term "cultural studies of disability" when referring to your practice.

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Disability. Why exactly? What do you mean by that? And perhaps you could

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also explain the characteristics of disability cultural studies,

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also providing a few specific examples of how research in this field is actually conducted

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. Yes, it feels a bit like

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October already, because very often

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people come to my classes who haven't had much contact with

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disability studies, and I begin by explaining what we'll be dealing with.

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And a key word in my explanations is usually the word "

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representation." Disability cultural studies

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deals with the representation of disability and people with

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disabilities. And the word "representation" itself has at least two

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such key meanings. The first refers to the way in which,

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in this case, disability and people with

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disabilities are presented in various cultural texts, as well as in language itself. And here,

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for example, we examine the evolution of these representations in the past.

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And here, we often look for disability in places where

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it is usually not noticed. An interesting example here is

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Tołbin Sibers's book, "The Aesthetics of Disability," which I

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recently had the opportunity to translate into Polish. In it, Sibers argues that

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disability—that is, bodies, minds, non-normative,

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disabled people—is essentially the foundation of modern art, beginning

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with modernism, when artists began to experiment intensely with the form

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and bodies they depicted. Avant-garde bodies

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are situated far from these normative models, from the ideal proportions

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illustrated by the Virtuvian Man in Dainci's drawing. Of course,

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we are also interested in the present, that is, current representations

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of disability. We also pay attention to reception, and here

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I find it particularly interesting that in recent years in Poland, people

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unrelated to cultural studies of disability have often lacked

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a language of description. And this language is lacking to describe representations that are

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unconventional, non-stereotypical. These individuals often

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cling so tightly to familiar models, familiar narratives, and that's why I hope that my

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work and the work of others in this area, not only academic but

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also non-academic, will contribute to this

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broadening of public discourse on disability. And finally,

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cultural disability studies. I've also focused on the future, on

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projecting the future in various cultural texts, including

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speculative fiction, but I also strive to shape this future to be

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inclusive, appreciative, so that this future appreciates diversity, the

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multiplicity of ways of being in the world. So, broadly speaking, we can

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say that cultural disability studies

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deals with various representations in literature, film, art, the

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press, the media, the advertising industry, and other such

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cultural texts in a very broad sense. We examine

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disability as a motif, a thematic element, an element

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of characterization. Here, it often turns out that disability serves

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as a so-called narrative prosthesis. This is a term from David Mitchell and

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Sharon Sneider. So, a disabled character is often used metaphorically

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; they represent a kind of tragedy, a weakness.

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Disability also often drives the narrative itself, and here, disability often

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appears as an enemy that must be defeated, and that's what

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the narrative is about. We explore various topoi, such as the relationship between

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disability and the supernatural world, disability as

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somehow linked to evil, punishment for sins, but also as a source of some

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supernatural abilities

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. We also explore disability as a resource that can provide new, deeper insight into reality,

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which is a source of reflection on contemporary life, on how

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we build our society to better meet our individual

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needs, here in Anglo-Saxon countries, and I think for

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some time now in Poland as well, especially among Polish activists.

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More left-wing sympathies. I think that for some time now, a recurring

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theme has been the critique of neoliberalism and the model of the

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independent, self-sufficient, hyper-efficient individual, pointing to

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interdependence as an important element of the human condition

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, and therefore promoting allyship and a certain ethic of care.

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But returning to the beginning, and to these two meanings of representation,

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I think I should also add that cultural studies of disability

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also deals with representation in a slightly different sense, because representation

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also means having representatives in a given area, here in

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the area of ​​culture. So, we also deal with access

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to culture for people with disabilities, not only from this

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perspective of recipients, but also from the perspective of those co-creating culture,

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those who work within it. And this is important for many reasons. I think this

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kind of representation can help counteract the perpetuation of certain

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stereotypes and one-dimensional, often harmful

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beliefs, but it can also be a source of more formal innovation,

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a source of new aesthetics. Thank you so much for this comprehensive,

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yet concise, answer. I have the impression that people who

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haven't fully understood what disability cultural studies is until now

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will feel encouraged not only to read about it but

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also to delve deeper into the research being

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conducted, and perhaps even, in some way , to co-create more intersectional research

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from their other research positions

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. I feel that the areas you mentioned actually

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demand intersectional

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engagement, yes, research, between different disciplines. You also draw methodologically, I have

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the impression that the results of your research and

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various theoretical, so-called, explorations are therefore so interesting.

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Absolutely. Um, although this is also

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very problematic in the academic environment, because if we want to climb the

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academic career ladder, it suddenly turns out that

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we don't fit in at all. So, yeah, so it's also a

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challenge for us. At one point, you mentioned the

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contribution of activists with disabilities

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to co-creating what might be called cultural studies of disability

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, and I wanted to move on to a question that also applies

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to the Polish context. But again, the introduction

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to this question is that it's truly unique that you're

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both a researcher and theorist, developing the culture of

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disability studies in Poland, often in relation to Polish

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cultural texts. You also have extensive experience as a translator of

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theoretical texts by authors of

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disability studies from, say, the broadly defined

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Anglo-American academy. Among other things, you translated

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American professor Rosema Garland Thompson's book

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"Gawienie się" (Gaping, or How We Look and How We Show Ourselves to Others),

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published by the Teatr 21 Foundation and the Center for Inclusive Art

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in the important series "Reclaiming Presence," edited by Ewelina

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Godlewska-Byliniak and Justyna Lipko-Koznaczna.

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Other books in this series were translated by

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Magdalena Zdrow-Zdrodowska and Natalia Pamuła, who are also researchers

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in disability studies. And at the same time, you are committed to

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ensuring that the reception of these theories developed outside the Polish context

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, or more broadly, outside Eastern Europe, is not uncritical, not

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copy-paste. And I'm interested in

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Garland Thompson's theoretical work, in particular, because her book, "Gapienie się," is recognized in

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international disability studies and has already achieved

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canonical status. What would you point out as

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particularly helpful for researchers who would like

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to analyze Polish literature from a

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disability perspective, and why would you point out these aspects as

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Helpful, but also, on the other hand, what would you advise avoiding,

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and why? Rosemary Garen Thomson's book is

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actually the first book I had the pleasure of translating for

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the Teatr 21 Foundation. This book is very important to me because Rosemary Garen Thompson was

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also the person who introduced me to

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disability cultural studies, and in her own way, she's also a mentor, an important

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person to me, because my introduction to disability studies came

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through the Anglo-Saxon context, yes, because I'm primarily an English major.

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I think that when it comes to this particular book, it's worth mentioning that

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it was published around the same time as another book by Garen Thomson,

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translated by Natalia Pamu, "The Extraordinary Representations of

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Physical Disability in American Culture and Literature." And I think that in this

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context, the book about staring perhaps has a certain advantage, because

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the starting point for Garen Thompson in this particular work isn't

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American culture, but rather a scholarly reflection on human instincts related to

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visual interactions. What distinguishes this book is its

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alternative perspective on the phenomenon of staring. Generally, in the

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academic community, a lot of staring has been written about

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the construction and perpetuation of certain power relations and the imposition of subordination. This is where

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Michelle Fou, for example, and his analyses, his observations of people

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in total institutions from prison to school, are being misrepresented. His concept of the medical

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gaze, which is a

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prioritizing, dehumanizing gaze in a gendered context, is also

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very close to the male gaze. Male gaz, about which John Berger wrote:

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"Men act, and women look. Men look at women,

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women look at themselves." And then there

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's the issue of staring as a certain taboo. It's not always appropriate to

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stare. This also applies to people with disabilities

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, and staring at people with disabilities is associated with

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unhealthy curiosity; inappropriate behavior is a kind of taboo.

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Ganon Thompson, of course, alludes to these issues, but at the same time

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departs from certain popular narratives, arguing that staring is,

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above all, a natural human reaction to the unexpected, to the unforeseen. And

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the person at whom the stare is directed is, as it were

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, part of the situation and doesn't necessarily have to play the

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role of a passive object. Thus, staring is a certain

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interaction in which the person being stared at, we might say

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, can play an active role, can shape the relationship. So, it's

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a multifaceted relationship, a living relationship, a relationship that

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can change dynamically. So now, how can we apply this? At

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first glance, it might seem that Garland

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Thompson's application here might be limited to the visual arts. However, I think there are also

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some applications in literature and literary studies.

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For example, I believe that in literary studies,

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Garland Thomson's theses encourage a focus on the relationship between

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characters, but also on the relationship between the reader and

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the characters described, who behave or simply appear in some non-normative

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way. Thus, reading literary texts through the lens of

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Garland Thomson's theory, we can consider the social functions of such

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intense gaze, the intense gaze in a given text,

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and consider how literature creates certain hierarchies between the so-called

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normal, the normie, and the other. Does the gaze create distance, or perhaps

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express fascination, shame, pity, or perhaps other emotions and

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reactions that are more non-stereotypical

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? What are the dynamics of this interaction? And I also think that Garen Thompson's book

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is also very interesting in terms of language itself, because Garen Thomson

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uses language very, very creatively, as if showing that this is our

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focus on sight, and this sight-centricity, this oculocentrism

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also clearly manifests itself in language, clearly manifests itself in language,

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We use it every day. Many of the expressions she uses from

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this rich idiom, of course, also have equivalents in

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Polish, but not all of them. This was also

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the subject of some reflection and criticism, for example, in the play "Widomi" (Widows)

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by the Horea Theatre in Łódź, which was

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co-created by visually impaired people, so it's also worth focusing on

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. So, on the one hand, I see the universality of this book, but

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on the other, I absolutely don't want to encourage uncritical acceptance

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of Garland Thompson's theses, but rather a critical

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examination of them, that is, developing this theory or even contesting it,

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perhaps with particular attention to such minor

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contextual differences. You said that Garland Thompson is

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a researcher, a theoretician, very important to you from the beginning of your

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academic career. I'm curious if this book is

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one of hers that you return to over the years, and if its meaning changes for you

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, in terms of how it's useful to you

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methodologically, let's say, as a tool.

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I think so. I think that, interestingly enough, it's also a good book to

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start your adventure with disability studies. It's not

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just a book about disability. It's essentially a book about

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encountering the other, the unusual, the unexpected.

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So I think I find applications for

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Tesgar and Thomson in very different areas that also interest me, because

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it's not just disability studies. I

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also really, really enjoy seeking connections, various alliances with other

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fields of research. Engagement.

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Engagement. Referring to the theme of our podcast,

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you mentioned language in your previous post, language that is

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dense, heavily charged with meaning, for

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example, in the writing of Garland Thompson. And I wanted to focus on

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language and disability studies now .

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One of the elements of developing broadly understood disability studies

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by Polish researchers and activists is focusing

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on language, on terms that are not only intended to serve as Polish equivalents

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of existing concepts, primarily from Anglo-American research,

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but also on creating new ones that are, on the one hand, relevant to local experiences and

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histories, and on the other, theoretical

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propositions with perhaps more universal potential.

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I'm curious if you've encountered any terms

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made in Poland that you think would be worth disseminating more widely, or

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perhaps even exporting outside of Poland. H, I'd definitely have to

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think about it some more, but such things, and such words and expressions that

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come to mind, are, first of all, alternative motor skills,

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used very often by Rafał Urbacki, for example, to describe his

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own work. And here, the adjective "Alternatywnij" seems rather

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elevating to me. In a sense, we're talking about art, music, and

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alternative culture—a culture that doesn't follow

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the mainstream, that swims somewhat against the current, that doesn't replicate existing

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frameworks and models, but creates new ones, and that is a kind of avant-garde.

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Yes. And I think I'll stick with the letter A, because the second word is

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Karolina Wiktor's "aphasians." And that's where my

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initial reaction was, well, mixed

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feelings. I thought this expression

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actually made people with aphasia seem a bit odd, making them seem like

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Martians, visitors from another planet. But

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at the same time, I realized it didn't have any

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negative connotations. And the third one, ai, is

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the word actress, used by

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the actress of the 21 Theatre, Aleksandra Skotarek, and this is how she describes herself as

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a stage professional who openly and very directly

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talks about her femininity, talks about her

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sexuality, talks about her body, talks about its desires, and does it in a

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very brave, very, very predatory way, like a lioness, like a tigress, like

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Like a toxoid. On the one hand, it challenges certain models of submissive femininity, and

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on the other, the common perception of people with

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intellectual disabilities as eternal children. You've opened the possibility of continuing this alphabet

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and truly remembering,

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even when reading various research papers or translations, to pay

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attention to certain terms, because they are often opaque and not without

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significance. I'm curious how you approach translating two

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fundamental terms for disability studies, let's say,

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disability and impairment in Polish.

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Disability as a disability, as a largely

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cultural construct. However, yes, I had a problem with "imperment." And

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here, too, because in English, the word

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"imperment" is more neutral than any Polish

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equivalent, so I most often use the words

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"damage" or "dysfunction." I just really don't like this breathless sound,

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but I haven't come up with anything better yet.

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I also agree with you that,

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paradoxically, "impairment" causes more problems in translation than "disability" in

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Polish. Many of the translations

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of equivalents I encounter, as you say, have a pejorative

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meaning that the English original doesn't quite capture.

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I've also encountered the term "niesprawność" (disability).

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And this "niesprawność" (disability). And that's not true, and it's largely as if the

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original meant to get rid of the beginning of

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the word "dys." We also encourage

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word-formers to look for an equivalent of

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"impairment" in Polish. And when it comes to

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the word "literature," literature is part of the cultural texts you analyze

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in your research, and literature is also

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very important in the context of our project, as it is at the center of our interests. I'm

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curious to hear your opinion about the main trends you see in recent

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literature. Let's assume such conventional censorship occurred after the ratification

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of the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in Poland

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, i.e., after 2012, which takes into account the perspective and experience of disability, but in

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a more political and engaged way.

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In recent years, I have the impression that we have witnessed a flourishing of what

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we call disability life writing,

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which involves not only people with

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disabilities themselves but also caregivers and

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assistants. I think that in recent years in Poland,

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quite a lot of attention has been paid to the voices of parents, especially mothers, of people

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with disabilities, and these are certainly incredibly important

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voices. If I recall correctly,

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Dorota Danielewicz and Magdalena Moskwa also participated in this podcast.

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However, it seems to me that

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the voices of people with disabilities

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themselves are somewhat lacking in this mainstream

354
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. I'm not an expert in Polish literature, but based on my reading experience, I would

355
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:14,200
definitely recommend Dorota Kotas and her books. It seems to me that

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her work is a very interesting literary attempt

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to capture the experience of a person on the autism spectrum, who is

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also someone with ADHD. And so, in terms of form, these books seem to me to

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00:30:28,679 --> 00:30:34,200
allude somewhat to stream-of-consciousness. Sometimes even with elements of

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00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:39,360
magical realism. The author often jumps from topic to topic,

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00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,480
presenting various snapshots of everyday life, but it's not

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the plot that matters most here, but what's happening within the narrator herself.

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And I think that Kotas's books also have a lot in common with the dramatic texts

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co-created by 21 Theatre actresses Maja Kowalczyk and Aleksandra Skotarek,

365
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,880
as well as Justyna Lipko Konieczna. Um, and Justyna here, uh, mainly plays,

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or rather largely plays, the role of a midwife, a facilitator

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who creates these plays based on conversations, uh, improvisation, just

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00:31:18,679 --> 00:31:24,360
like in the case of body to body with Merlin, or uh, I'm not

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00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:30,600
a plant stream of consciousness. And here again, I'll allow myself a little

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Self-promotion, because these texts will be published in September in a book titled

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00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,880
Theatre and Disability. Yes, I particularly recommend

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these plays because I think that, to some extent, like Kotas's work, they

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00:31:46,919 --> 00:31:54,720
fit into what the French writer Elen Siko calls lec feminine,

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that is, writing by women for women,

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but also writing from the body, writing focused on the body, one's own body, on

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00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,919
its needs. Um, I think there's also

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00:32:09,919 --> 00:32:16,000
an interesting play in the anthology by Kinga Chudobińska, Pain, in which, in which play

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00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,440
Kinga Chudobińska juxtaposes her own story with the diaries of the saint, uh,

379
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:28,080
Faustyna Kowalska, uh, CIS Barberlon, and Aleksander Vat. And she also weaves

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00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:34,200
lyrics from the band Caliber 44 into the narrative. I think this is a very important piece of work,

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00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:39,039
also because pain is rarely discussed in

382
00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:44,159
critical disability studies and

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00:32:44,159 --> 00:32:49,600
disability rights activism, which counters the overwhelming

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00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:55,679
emphasis on strength and pride. Now, this is starting to change a bit. However

385
00:32:55,679 --> 00:33:02,919
, I think Kinga Chudobińska presents her

386
00:33:02,919 --> 00:33:07,720
story in a very interesting way. She writes about pain, about lack of strength, about anger, about

387
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:13,080
the trauma associated with the changes in her body-mind as

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00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,000
she acquires a disability. And at the same time, this narrative doesn't fit

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00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,960
the model of individual tragedy, that it deals with love,

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00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:29,240
interdependence, and survival, but this survival is not only connected

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00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,760
to living despite everything, despite illness,

392
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:38,000
despite disability, but also thanks to disability, thanks to these

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00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,519
experiences. And I think the last book

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00:33:42,519 --> 00:33:46,919
I'd like to mention is Maria Reyman. And I won't say hello to

395
00:33:46,919 --> 00:33:51,679
you on the street. An autoethnographic book

396
00:33:51,679 --> 00:33:56,760
by a Polish researcher who recently passed away. I deeply regret that I didn't have

397
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,600
the opportunity to meet Maria in person, although we exchanged

398
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:05,559
emails at one point. This book is

399
00:34:05,559 --> 00:34:11,040
actually a very personal reflection on my own disability,

400
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:16,399
and on my own academic work in the field of disability studies,

401
00:34:16,399 --> 00:34:21,839
which describes, and I think

402
00:34:21,839 --> 00:34:28,960
so clearly challenges, binary oppositions, showing that disability

403
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,399
in its various forms is not monolithic,

404
00:34:33,399 --> 00:34:37,560
but rather a kind of spectrum. And this division into able-bodied and disabled

405
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:43,760
is largely simplistic. Thank you for these various

406
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:50,480
recommendations and important books. I can also add,

407
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:55,159
regarding poetry and disability, that I encourage you to listen to the second

408
00:34:55,159 --> 00:35:01,119
episode of our podcast, in which Dominika Filipowicz, poet and activist,

409
00:35:01,119 --> 00:35:06,520
maps out a bit of contemporary Polish poetry. She also speaks in a very interesting way

410
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:12,400
about the challenges associated with writing from the body and about the body, which,

411
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:17,359
on the one hand, doesn't fit into the neoliberal

412
00:35:17,359 --> 00:35:22,400
trend of thinking about the body, and on the other hand,

413
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:29,359
isn't the kind of writing that's devoid of political,

414
00:35:29,359 --> 00:35:33,200
technical, or even communal dimensions. Dominika

415
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:38,720
talks very interestingly about this kind of identity poetry. I encourage you to listen to

416
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:45,480
the conversation with Dominika. Regarding Maria Rajman, we absolutely

417
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:50,480
recommend her autoethnographic book titled "I Won't Greet You

418
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:55,480
on the Street," as well as your articles, in which

419
00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:03,720
you analyze this book and this work. And I have the impression that what

420
00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:08,920
Mari has actually managed to achieve through her writing and approaching

421
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:16,000
her research from such a meta-level of very self-reflexivity is that she

422
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:22,200
in such a unique way complicates and deepens the understanding

423
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,599
of concepts such as disability itself,

424
00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:28,800
but also the identity of people with disabilities.

425
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:34,200
He also problematizes issues of community, breaking down the homogeneity

426
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:39,040
of who people with disabilities are or can be as a

427
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,160
social group, but he also

428
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,640
writes in a very moving way about what so-called coming out as a person with

429
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,240
a disability can mean. In your research, you

430
00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:55,680
also explore the intersection of cultural studies of disability with other areas.

431
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:01,599
Research. You mentioned that there are many such research and

432
00:37:01,599 --> 00:37:06,560
methodological areas, which you draw from, which you are interested in

433
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,119
, and which you connect with cultural disability studies.

434
00:37:11,119 --> 00:37:16,200
For example, you carried out a project on the intersection of cultural

435
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:21,079
disability studies and ecocriticism, focusing on issues of

436
00:37:21,079 --> 00:37:26,359
disability and biodiversity in selected cultural texts. I would be

437
00:37:26,359 --> 00:37:31,400
interested if you could tell us, based on this project or your other research and

438
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,560
research activities in this area, what arguments you would make for incorporating

439
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:41,240
the disability perspective into other research areas?

440
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:46,520
How do you think invoking it

441
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:51,760
simultaneously enriches and complicates existing ecocritical practices, for example, especially in

442
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,880
the field of literary studies. Generally speaking, I think I would start from

443
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:03,400
the fact that ecocriticism and broadly defined ecology have long been based on

444
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,359
a rather traditional perception of nature, based on binary

445
00:38:07,359 --> 00:38:12,359
oppositions: human, nature, nature, culture, artificial, natural.

446
00:38:12,359 --> 00:38:17,400
This paradigm shift has led to

447
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,359
a posthumanist approach, which demonstrates that nature is a certain

448
00:38:22,359 --> 00:38:26,680
conventional construct. However, the bodies and minds

449
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:32,640
of people with disabilities have often been constructed as excluded

450
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:38,839
from the natural world, as a kind of perception of nature, as a mistake of nature, rather than as

451
00:38:38,839 --> 00:38:43,200
part of the environment. And posthumanism precisely knocks

452
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:49,640
humans off the pedestal on which they have placed themselves.

453
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:55,280
And the posthumanist vision is more horizontal than hierarchical,

454
00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:00,359
strongly based on the idea of ​​interdependence. And I think that's why

455
00:39:00,359 --> 00:39:05,440
it's a very good entry point for reflection on how we create certain

456
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:12,119
hierarchies, including hierarchies of people, by excluding and discriminating against certain

457
00:39:12,119 --> 00:39:17,640
groups. However, connecting ecological and disability themes

458
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:25,000
is very difficult because people with various disabilities

459
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,200
have been and continue to be compared to animals

460
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,720
or called vegetables, which historically has led to violence and

461
00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:39,760
extermination. It's also helpful that some well-known contemporary

462
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:47,000
philosophers, such as Peter Singer and Jeff McMachen, who defend animal rights,

463
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,480
don't consider people with so-called significant disabilities to be persons

464
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:57,280
and don't consider their lives to be properly worth living. But

465
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:02,720
we also now have examples of, I think, quite effective combining

466
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:07,520
of these perspectives, and here, well, I must definitely recommend Nor

467
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:13,560
Taylor's book, translated into Polish, "Bnęnce brzemie," which

468
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:18,240
combines these reflections on disability studies and

469
00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:25,000
animal studies, touching on a number of themes, such as the impairment of

470
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,480
both animals, or nonhuman and human animals,

471
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,240
due to the devastating impact of anthropogenic factors on

472
00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:38,319
the environment. This is also related to her own disability,

473
00:40:38,319 --> 00:40:43,760
a disability caused by

474
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:48,480
environmental pollution in the place where she was born. I would also like to mention

475
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:55,920
that Sunaura Taylor also deals with ableism in a very broad sense, and in

476
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,720
her book, she argues that this issue affects not only humans but

477
00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:04,200
also animals. As she writes, ableism is a force

478
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,960
that affects not only humans. It is a violence that affects all bodies. Thus

479
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,520
, animal minds, like

480
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:17,079
the minds of disabled people or those belonging to various other

481
00:41:17,079 --> 00:41:21,319
discredited and disadvantaged groups, are sometimes

482
00:41:21,319 --> 00:41:26,240
defined precisely in this anthropocentric perspective as entities

483
00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:29,920
deprived of certain such valuable traits,

484
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:35,119
as entities deprived of certain valued

485
00:41:35,119 --> 00:41:41,240
qualities. Sondara Taylor, in her

486
00:41:41,240 --> 00:41:47,440
theoretical and artistic work, often raises the topic

487
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,839
of resentments, sentiments surrounding the extermination of people with

488
00:41:51,839 --> 00:41:57,079
disabilities, eugenic practices, or eugenic

489
00:41:57,079 --> 00:42:02,800
tendencies expressed in the discourse, the ubiquitous discourse on people with

490
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,760
disabilities. In your research, you also

491
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:13,319
deal with an extremely important, but unfortunately largely

492
00:42:13,319 --> 00:42:21,160
forgotten, topic, namely the T4 operation, an operation that was

493
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:26,559
Implemented in the Third Reich, in short, it involved the systematic

494
00:42:26,559 --> 00:42:30,200
extermination of people with disabilities,

495
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:37,720
because, as the propaganda claimed, their lives were unworthy of life and

496
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:42,359
burdened the masses economically and socially.

497
00:42:42,359 --> 00:42:47,119
And the goal of your research, too, I have

498
00:42:47,119 --> 00:42:51,000
the impression, is to attempt to reverse the social and political amnesia

499
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:57,319
surrounding the T4 campaign, but also these eugenic tropes in

500
00:42:57,319 --> 00:43:01,280
culture. Do Polish texts, and in what way?

501
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,280
Cultural texts, including literature, contribute to

502
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:10,559
recovering this memory, history, and the dignity

503
00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:16,680
of the victims? Do they broaden and deepen, in such a critical way, the

504
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,160
contemporary understanding of these discourses on disability in

505
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,079
the context of eugenics? This is a very broad topic for me, and

506
00:43:24,079 --> 00:43:30,760
I think there's enough material here for an entire podcast, or even more.

507
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:36,000
But I've tried to keep it brief, starting with the fact that the memory of

508
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:41,720
disabled victims of Nazism in Poland

509
00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:47,480
was, in fact, rather sparsely present, and the only

510
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,960
people who took on the role of guardians of

511
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:56,200
this memory were psychiatrists, including Zdzisław Jaroszewski,

512
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,119
and later Tadeusz Nasirowski. Their approach

513
00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:07,119
, however, was from the perspective of medical historians. For a long time, these

514
00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:11,400
victims were essentially overlooked in public discourse, treated

515
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:18,000
as inferior, less important victims. And if they were discussed at all,

516
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:23,359
the dominant discourse was often one of pity, of leaning on the

517
00:44:23,359 --> 00:44:27,520
weaker. Sometimes, attempts were made to inscribe them within the martyrdom of the

518
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,680
Polish nation. Interestingly, more recently, not only as

519
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:40,040
defenseless, powerless victims, but also as victims who sought to

520
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:46,200
somehow confront the enemy. However, these representations

521
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:51,760
also very often omit the disability of these individuals. They hide it somehow

522
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:58,800
, so they turn these helpless victims into

523
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:04,319
heroes and heroines. However, the disability itself disappears somewhat.

524
00:45:04,319 --> 00:45:09,520
As for non-fiction, I think I would definitely recommend

525
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:16,040
Kalina Błażejowska's 2023 book, "Bezdusznie zapomniana głaza zdrowie" (The Soullessly Forgotten Holocaust of the Sick),

526
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,920
which presents this topic from a more critical and

527
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,079
contemporary perspective. As for literary texts themselves,

528
00:45:25,079 --> 00:45:29,440
there are several more contemporary texts that, in my

529
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:35,920
opinion, have considerable literary value. However, these are still texts written

530
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:40,480
by people without disabilities, which sometimes, for example, slightly

531
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:46,440
depart from the facts, as in the case of Weronika Murek and Finewine Vline's play,

532
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:51,960
or somewhat marginalize disabled body-minds,

533
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:57,079
disabled victims, as in the case of Anna

534
00:45:57,079 --> 00:46:02,680
David Meller's book "Góra Tiget," which is an excellent book. Um, but there

535
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:08,040
's this motif of extermination, uh, in a psychiatric hospital, uh, and the main

536
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:13,079
character is, uh, an able-bodied boy who ends up there because he doesn't

537
00:46:13,079 --> 00:46:17,720
get along with his German stepfather. And we're kind of

538
00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:21,680
observing these other children, the disabled children,

539
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:28,400
from a certain distance, and we're looking at them through the eyes of one of the characters, little

540
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:34,240
Rysio, who is able-bodied. However, for me, a

541
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:41,119
very important cultural text for commemorating people with disabilities

542
00:46:41,119 --> 00:46:45,880
is definitely the performance by Teatr 21,

543
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:52,319
which was originally staged at the Polin Museum in a very special

544
00:46:52,319 --> 00:46:56,839
place, because it was a room that was an empty space and

545
00:46:56,839 --> 00:47:02,200
led to a gallery dedicated to the Holocaust. And

546
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,920
here, I think, both the title of this performance, which

547
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:13,000
refers to the saddest day in the Jewish calendar,

548
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:18,599
and the very place where it took place, allude to the view

549
00:47:18,599 --> 00:47:24,640
of many historians that Operation T4 was a prelude to the Holocaust.

550
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:30,599
However, Tisza Bav itself, as a performance, as a performative action,

551
00:47:30,599 --> 00:47:36,839
I think that in a very, very direct way shows the transition from

552
00:47:36,839 --> 00:47:42,079
stigmatization to elimination, from such simple physical exercises and

553
00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:49,040
backyard games that actually expose certain exclusionary

554
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:54,280
Social behavior and principles, from the stigmatization of those who are free,

555
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:59,440
the smaller, the weaker, the less fortunate, to the ultimate

556
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:05,640
elimination. I remember the first time I discovered

557
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:11,040
that this very

558
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:16,720
group of Nazi victims, one might say

559
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:21,440
, was not mentioned at all in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. That is,

560
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:26,559
they were locked away, as I call it, in a closet under the title, and so

561
00:48:26,559 --> 00:48:32,680
on and so forth. At the same time, it was a group that

562
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:38,640
took many, many decades to fight for its own convention at

563
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:45,440
the UN. So, putting these facts together, it's absolutely

564
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:51,440
shocking, and it's not something that exists only in the past.

565
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:56,760
I'm really looking forward to the documentary, which has already been released, but not yet

566
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:02,720
widely distributed. It's directed by Cameron Mitchell, who is

567
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:07,440
the son of the researchers you mentioned earlier, Professor

568
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:12,799
David Mitchell, and Sharon Snyider. Cameron Mitchell made a

569
00:49:12,799 --> 00:49:19,200
documentary film specifically about Operation T4, titled "Disposable Humanity." I don't

570
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,799
know if you've seen this film yet. Yes, I did, because I also had a

571
00:49:23,799 --> 00:49:30,440
small contribution, because the entire Sneider Mitchell family came to Poland,

572
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:35,359
including to the fort where, in fact, a gas chamber was first used

573
00:49:35,359 --> 00:49:41,319
to exterminate not Jews, but people from a nearby

574
00:49:41,319 --> 00:49:46,680
psychiatric hospital. And that's where some of the footage was also recorded. This

575
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:52,920
was also one of the places Sneider and Mitchell visited, essentially

576
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:58,359
as a pilgrimage, which was also documented

577
00:49:58,359 --> 00:50:02,720
on film. Yes. However, this is also

578
00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:08,119
a continuation of their work, which they began much, much earlier.

579
00:50:08,119 --> 00:50:12,799
As a young boy, Cameron Mitchell traveled with his parents and sister

580
00:50:12,799 --> 00:50:18,240
to places in Germany where people with

581
00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:22,960
disabilities were exterminated, and this was also documented in the film

582
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:28,599
"A World Without Bodies." These titles will also be included in

583
00:50:28,599 --> 00:50:34,359
the recommendations in the description, so you can locate them and use these

584
00:50:34,359 --> 00:50:37,520
resources.

585
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:42,880
[Music] Finally, three recurring questions

586
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:48,000
we ask all our guests. First, what

587
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,720
event related to the disability rights movement

588
00:50:51,720 --> 00:50:55,760
do you consider so important to you personally?

589
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,799
Okay, so maybe I'll allow myself a bit of a coming-out here,

590
00:50:59,799 --> 00:51:05,079
because I think what's very important to me right now is that in recent years,

591
00:51:05,079 --> 00:51:11,359
neurodiversity and mental illness have been destigmatized

592
00:51:11,359 --> 00:51:17,559
among a large portion of the younger generation in Poland . And

593
00:51:17,559 --> 00:51:21,520
recently, I've been observing that young people who come to

594
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,520
my classes are speaking openly about their experiences

595
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:30,920
and their needs. And of course, at the same time, I'm noticing many

596
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:36,599
problems related to, for example, the fact that it's very difficult to get access

597
00:51:36,599 --> 00:51:42,520
to doctors who specialize in neurodiversity, even privately.

598
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:48,240
Public discourse is again heavily focused on the

599
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:53,280
neurodiversity craze, the ADHD craze, overdiagnosis, and so on

600
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:58,160
. But why does this concern me personally, and why is it

601
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:03,640
so important to me? Well, I think it's because I recently experienced a

602
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:10,799
depressive episode myself. I'm in the process of being diagnosed with something that might place me somewhere

603
00:52:10,799 --> 00:52:15,880
on the neuroatypical spectrum, but I think these changes

604
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:21,839
will make it easier for me to navigate this spectrum and find

605
00:52:21,839 --> 00:52:26,720
a place where I can find the right support, not just

606
00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:30,000
medical but also social.

607
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:35,760
Fortunately, we're already at a point where there

608
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:41,680
are more and more supportive communities, so even though these experiences will remain

609
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:47,119
difficult, you're not completely alone, as was the case

610
00:52:47,119 --> 00:52:51,079
even a decade or 20 years ago in Poland.

611
00:52:51,079 --> 00:52:57,319
The second question in this series of questions is, if you had to point out one

612
00:52:57,319 --> 00:53:01,880
thing, what would be missing from the contemporary narrative about disability?

613
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,920
I think it's very difficult for us to move away from this ethos of overcoming

614
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:10,440
disability to become this super-efficient, independent individual.

615
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,359
A unit of value for the capitalist

616
00:53:14,359 --> 00:53:19,359
order, which I think is undoubtedly very difficult in the current

617
00:53:19,359 --> 00:53:25,559
political climate, when a very large percentage of citizens vote

618
00:53:25,559 --> 00:53:31,799
for a populist party that promotes extreme national liberalism.

619
00:53:31,799 --> 00:53:35,599
So I think that, and I think that maybe we're also a little lacking in this

620
00:53:35,599 --> 00:53:40,079
intersectionality, and in building alliances between the

621
00:53:40,079 --> 00:53:45,160
disability rights movement

622
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:50,119
and the civil rights movement, human rights movement, and the rights of various other

623
00:53:50,119 --> 00:53:54,000
disadvantaged groups. And that's precisely why I really wanted to translate

624
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:59,400
Kefer's book. And I'm glad I was able to do so. We're really looking forward

625
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:05,799
to this translation, because it's another incredibly important work not only in

626
00:54:05,799 --> 00:54:11,880
the field of disability studies, but also in the field of gender studies,

627
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:16,680
so we're really, really looking forward to it. And the last question:

628
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,920
If you're thinking about any specific, or dreaming about,

629
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:23,559
social change in the context of disability,

630
00:54:23,559 --> 00:54:27,440
what kind? I'm thinking about many changes. I'm

631
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:32,559
definitely looking forward to the personal assistance law, but I'm also waiting for

632
00:54:32,559 --> 00:54:38,760
a change in the general mindset of people living in Poland. I recently

633
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,720
had a brief conversation with a very frustrated teacher working in

634
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:47,440
integrated classes. I understood her frustration,

635
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:52,480
but I also noticed that beneath that frustration, there

636
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:59,480
's a certain kind of resentment, especially toward people with

637
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:05,920
intellectual disabilities. So I'd like us to stop thinking of social

638
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:11,880
inclusion as something that's impossible to achieve, as

639
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:17,839
simply some uh, absolutely uh, impossible utopia. And

640
00:55:17,839 --> 00:55:22,079
we shouldn't think that because the solutions

641
00:55:22,079 --> 00:55:26,920
implemented so far have proven ineffective, we should

642
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:32,079
return to the previous state of affairs. And I'd like us

643
00:55:32,079 --> 00:55:36,720
to make an effort to be more inclusive now

644
00:55:36,720 --> 00:55:42,640
. I don't mean for everyone here to be strongmen,

645
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:47,119
making this effort individually, but rather for us to support each other in

646
00:55:47,119 --> 00:55:53,599
thinking about systemic change and fighting for it, for implementing it.

647
00:55:53,599 --> 00:56:00,079
Thank you very much. We wish courage to those responsible for

648
00:56:00,079 --> 00:56:05,960
social policies, and that funding for these changes will also be available.

649
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:11,920
Kasia, thank you again for the conversation and for your excellent work in

650
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:17,599
various fields, and we'll see you on the path of activist research.

651
00:56:17,599 --> 00:56:20,300
See you soon. Thank you very much for the invitation.

652
00:56:20,300 --> 00:56:23,449
[Music]

653
00:56:25,839 --> 00:56:30,119
The podcast series "Engaged Polish Studies" was produced as part of the project

654
00:56:30,119 --> 00:56:35,039
"Polish Studies and the Challenges of the Modern World." It was co-financed from the state budget

655
00:56:35,039 --> 00:56:39,200
under the Minister of Education and Science's program "Science for

656
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:43,240
Society 2." The project number is in the description.

657
00:56:43,240 --> 00:56:47,640
We invite you to listen to subsequent episodes available on

658
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:53,760
Spraker, Spotify, and YouTube, as well as in the online Polish studies bulletin.

659
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,960
See you soon.

660
00:56:57,830 --> 00:57:01,790
[Music]