0:00:00.240,0:00:00.740
I think

0:00:00.780,0:00:01.840
that meeting someone

0:00:01.840,0:00:03.380
who comes to us,

0:00:03.440,0:00:06.760
sharing a burning issue,

0:00:06.760,0:00:09.680
is also a privilege to hear something like that from

0:00:09.680,0:00:11.080
someone.
It's a close connection;

0:00:11.100,0:00:13.800
we're with them often in crisis

0:00:13.800,0:00:14.520
situations,

0:00:14.540,0:00:17.040
often at the most important moments in their lives.

0:00:17.260,0:00:20.540
In some way, we're embedded in this universe,

0:00:20.540,0:00:21.040
and it seems

0:00:21.040,0:00:22.360
to be a narrative process.

0:00:23.100,0:00:25.840
I recommend reflecting on your own narrative.

0:00:25.900,0:00:27.780
If you're a doctor,

0:00:27.780,0:00:30.260
I recommend reflecting on your patients' narratives.

0:00:30.260,0:00:32.360
It can be truly interesting, and

0:00:32.360,0:00:34.380
it can also contribute to your own lives.

0:00:34.720,0:00:38.240
You can also begin to see these difficult moments as

0:00:38.240,0:00:40.540
a privilege of accompanying someone through

0:00:40.540,0:00:41.460
moments in life

0:00:41.580,0:00:43.200
that are difficult,

0:00:43.200,0:00:43.600
important, 

0:00:43.600,0:00:45.320
and somehow change their attitude and

0:00:45.340,0:00:47.160
perspective on the world.

0:00:52.080,0:00:54.700
We invite you to listen to episodes of the new

0:00:54.700,0:00:58.380
podcast series on the Polish Studies Newsletter's Meetings, titled 

0:00:58.380,0:00:59.360
"Engaged Polish Studies".

0:01:01.140,0:01:03.980
Polish studies aren't a helpless observation

0:01:03.980,0:01:04.480
of the world.

0:01:04.959,0:01:06.520
They provide tools

0:01:06.520,0:01:07.800
to navigate it,

0:01:07.800,0:01:09.600
help understand it, and

0:01:09.740,0:01:13.080
prevent exclusion and loneliness.

0:01:14.720,0:01:16.760
This is the Polish studies

0:01:16.760,0:01:18.940
we want to showcase through our project.

0:01:20.769,0:01:22.570
Engaged Polish Studies.

0:01:33.430,0:01:35.030
Good morning Adrianna.

0:01:35.230,0:01:36.330
Good morning Marta.

0:01:36.390,0:01:37.510
Thank you

0:01:37.590,0:01:41.050
for accepting the invitation to this conversation 

0:01:41.050,0:01:41.890
about narrative medicine.

0:01:42.010,0:01:43.170
Perhaps

0:01:43.230,0:01:46.550
I could first introduce you to our listeners.

0:01:46.890,0:01:47.390
Dear Sirs and Madams,

0:01:47.690,0:01:49.210
Ms. Adrianna Beczek,

0:01:49.310,0:01:50.110
a doctor

0:01:50.110,0:01:53.210
who graduated from medical school at

0:01:53.210,0:01:54.970
the Jagiellonian University Medical College,

0:01:54.970,0:01:57.150
is also a humanities scholar.

0:01:57.640,0:02:00.560
After completing her bachelor's degree in ethnology and

0:02:00.560,0:02:04.360
cultural anthropology and her master's degree

0:02:04.360,0:02:07.660
within the interfaculty individual

0:02:07.660,0:02:08.919
humanities studies program at the Jagiellonian University,

0:02:09.100,0:02:10.060
it's a difficult,

0:02:10.080,0:02:11.500
long, and complicated title,

0:02:11.680,0:02:14.700
so Adrianna, you're both a doctor  

0:02:14.700,0:02:15.360
and a humanities scholar.

0:02:15.420,0:02:19.040
Since November 2021, you've also been a

0:02:19.040,0:02:22.080
teaching assistant at the Medical Communication Center at

0:02:22.080,0:02:26.060
the Medical University of Warsaw and are currently

0:02:26.060,0:02:26.900
specializing

0:02:26.920,0:02:29.260
in psychiatry.

0:02:29.520,0:02:32.520
It was at the Medical University of Warsaw that we had the opportunity to meet

0:02:32.520,0:02:34.900
for the first time and get to know each other during a

0:02:34.900,0:02:36.880
conference on communication in medicine.

0:02:37.300,0:02:38.440
But,

0:02:38.480,0:02:39.020
importantly,

0:02:39.160,0:02:42.640
in 2019, you participated in the

0:02:42.640,0:02:45.500
narrative medicine workshops led by Rita Sharon.

0:02:45.940,0:02:46.540
Milan,

0:02:46.600,0:02:47.260
so it's closer,

0:02:47.260,0:02:48.320
so you didn't have to go

0:02:48.320,0:02:49.520
all the way across the ocean.

0:02:49.780,0:02:50.700
All the way to New York.

0:02:50.760,0:02:51.260
Exactly.

0:02:51.640,0:02:54.040
Just before COVID, we had

0:02:54.040,0:02:54.660
the pleasure of visiting Milan,

0:02:54.700,0:02:56.440
just before the pandemic broke out.

0:02:56.720,0:02:57.860
We were in Milan,

0:02:57.880,0:02:59.300
we met with Rita Sharon.

0:03:00.250,0:03:01.090
A wonderful opportunity,

0:03:01.130,0:03:02.230
so we'll talk about that later.

0:03:02.230,0:03:02.670
Yes, indeed.

0:03:02.670,0:03:06.610
And in general, you've been involved in working

0:03:06.610,0:03:08.930
on the methodology of narrative medicine for many years.

0:03:09.390,0:03:11.530
You consulted, among other things, on the Polish edition of

0:03:11.570,0:03:13.090
a rather important book

0:03:13.090,0:03:14.330
by Rita Charon and her team,

0:03:14.350,0:03:15.490
a textbook, in fact,

0:03:15.830,0:03:17.370
Narrative Medicine,

0:03:17.370,0:03:18.470
Theory and Practice.

0:03:18.910,0:03:21.790
The book was published in Polish in 2020,

0:03:22.030,0:03:24.730
translated by Maria Świątkowska, and

0:03:24.730,0:03:27.630
was created and edited by Hubert Systek and

0:03:27.630,0:03:28.810
Mateusz Potoniec.

0:03:29.640,0:03:31.100
You were part of this work.

0:03:31.100,0:03:32.940
The chapter on cultural anthropology,

0:03:32.980,0:03:34.800
concerning cultural anthropology.

0:03:34.860,0:03:35.440
Well,
they dreamed of what

0:03:35.500,0:03:36.680
you know.

0:03:37.120,0:03:37.720
Adrianna,

0:03:37.740,0:03:40.160
perhaps you could add something to this list of

0:03:40.160,0:03:41.940
certain biographical facts?

0:03:42.060,0:03:44.080
Thank you very much for inviting me to the conversation.

0:03:44.120,0:03:45.060
I hope

0:03:45.060,0:03:50.050
that somehow my perspective, which is a bit too close to

0:03:50.050,0:03:50.490
the clinic,

0:03:50.490,0:03:50.950
because I won't say

0:03:50.950,0:03:52.010
that it's some great,

0:03:52.010,0:03:54.450
deep clinical practice of narrative medicine,

0:03:54.450,0:03:56.790
can add something to the understanding of this topic and to

0:03:56.790,0:03:57.750
the discussion about it, which,

0:03:57.790,0:03:58.510
I have a feeling, is currently

0:03:58.510,0:03:58.990
taking place

0:03:58.990,0:03:59.690
in Poland.

0:04:00.580,0:04:04.100
Could you tell me a bit more about

0:04:04.180,0:04:07.480
how you combined medical studies with

0:04:07.480,0:04:08.600
humanities studies?

0:04:08.640,0:04:09.660
Because I think

0:04:09.680,0:04:11.140
it's incredibly difficult.

0:04:11.160,0:04:13.400
Medical studies seem so

0:04:13.400,0:04:14.360
engaging,

0:04:14.360,0:04:16.360
and here,

0:04:16.360,0:04:16.760
it's like

0:04:16.760,0:04:17.519
ethnography,

0:04:17.519,0:04:19.519
anthropology, and then there's this whole thing, all in parallel.

0:04:19.640,0:04:22.680
How did you manage to do all this, and

0:04:22.680,0:04:24.080
where did the idea

0:04:24.080,0:04:26.460
to intertwine these two paths come from?

0:04:26.950,0:04:28.130
How did I do it?

0:04:28.330,0:04:29.370
It was difficult,

0:04:29.370,0:04:29.930
I won't say

0:04:29.950,0:04:32.770
it was easy, and I also remember that

0:04:32.770,0:04:34.850
period as difficult,

0:04:34.850,0:04:38.110
but only possible thanks to the goodwill and

0:04:38.110,0:04:40.430
commitment of many of my lecturers and assistants.

0:04:40.550,0:04:42.050
Maybe this is a good platform

0:04:42.050,0:04:43.270
to thank everyone for

0:04:43.310,0:04:45.610
remembering this and really appreciating

0:04:45.610,0:04:48.630
that it was made possible for me through individual

0:04:48.630,0:04:52.290
study plans and the possibility of taking credits at different

0:04:52.290,0:04:52.910
times,

0:04:52.930,0:04:53.630
so many people

0:04:53.670,0:04:55.610
who somehow understood my mission.

0:04:56.300,0:04:59.060
They were involved and made it possible for me as

0:04:59.060,0:05:00.520
part of my studies at the Jagiellonian University.

0:05:00.580,0:05:03.320
I don't want to create any

0:05:03.320,0:05:04.700
false legend here,

0:05:04.700,0:05:07.240
because I studied longer because

0:05:07.280,0:05:08.540
I studied these two fields,

0:05:08.540,0:05:11.400
combining them during my leave periods.

0:05:11.780,0:05:12.860
In one field,

0:05:12.860,0:05:14.680
in the other, I followed individual plans.

0:05:15.150,0:05:16.330
That's how I managed. I completed

0:05:16.370,0:05:17.470
the last year of my studies,

0:05:17.470,0:05:18.870
my master's degree as part of the

0:05:18.870,0:05:21.550
inter-faculty humanities program, while

0:05:21.550,0:05:24.230
working as a doctor at a detention center in

0:05:24.230,0:05:24.730
Krakow.

0:05:25.050,0:05:28.150
So I worked at the detention center with hours

0:05:28.170,0:05:31.130
that allowed me to study a few blocks

0:05:31.130,0:05:33.510
away,
finish my master's degree,

0:05:33.510,0:05:35.170
and then defend my thesis.

0:05:35.250,0:05:37.670
Where did the idea for this combination come from?

0:05:37.870,0:05:40.730
Unfortunately, there's no other way

0:05:40.730,0:05:43.350
to describe it than disillusionment with medicine and the

0:05:43.350,0:05:44.270
way it works.

0:05:45.100,0:05:46.620
I don't come from a medical family.

0:05:47.210,0:05:51.390
My first contact with the medical field wasn't

0:05:51.390,0:05:53.470
until my third year of studies,

0:05:53.510,0:05:54.970
when clinical classes begin.

0:05:55.090,0:05:56.150
The first two years,

0:05:56.210,0:05:56.710
three years in the past,

0:05:56.750,0:05:57.950
two years now, I think,

0:05:58.030,0:05:59.810
were theoretical classes,

0:05:59.810,0:06:01.190
more like university.

0:06:01.390,0:06:02.510
No patient contact.

0:06:02.530,0:06:03.770
No patient contact,

0:06:03.770,0:06:06.590
yes.
First, there are all four basic sciences,

0:06:06.590,0:06:10.330
then you continue with

0:06:10.330,0:06:11.910
seminars and lectures,

0:06:11.950,0:06:14.110
and from the third year on, clinical sciences began,

0:06:14.170,0:06:16.350
meaning teaching medicine.

0:06:16.590,0:06:17.790
Where there's an assistant,

0:06:17.790,0:06:20.390
you have classes in smaller groups with the assistant,

0:06:20.390,0:06:21.650
you follow the assistant around,

0:06:21.890,0:06:23.170
observe their work, and

0:06:23.170,0:06:23.670
they explain

0:06:23.670,0:06:24.550
why they do things

0:06:24.610,0:06:25.210
this way

0:06:25.210,0:06:26.970
. These are very practical classes.

0:06:27.190,0:06:29.650
And when these classes started,

0:06:29.650,0:06:31.110
I was overwhelmed by

0:06:31.150,0:06:31.990
the way things were.

0:06:32.450,0:06:34.750
I didn't really like it and even

0:06:34.750,0:06:36.950
considered
giving up medicine altogether and switching

0:06:36.950,0:06:37.970
to another field.

0:06:37.970,0:06:40.510
Then I started studying cultural anthropology.

0:06:41.200,0:06:44.540
But after a year of student leave, I returned and

0:06:44.540,0:06:45.440
completed my medical degree.

0:06:45.500,0:06:46.340
This was also thanks to the fact

0:06:46.400,0:06:48.020
that I learned

0:06:48.060,0:06:50.120
about approaches like narrative medicine,

0:06:50.120,0:06:50.580
that there were people

0:06:50.580,0:06:51.720
trying to combine them,

0:06:51.800,0:06:54.240
who tried to incorporate

0:06:54.240,0:06:57.380
insights from the humanities and social sciences into their practice, and

0:06:57.380,0:06:59.280
somehow managed to do so.

0:06:59.300,0:07:02.520
And that seemed inspiring to me, and I thought

0:07:02.540,0:07:05.200
that maybe it doesn't necessarily have to look  

0:07:05.200,0:07:05.600
like the way

0:07:05.600,0:07:07.340
I observe it during classes.

0:07:07.870,0:07:10.090
So I finished it and I'm working on it, somehow,

0:07:10.090,0:07:10.630
it's working.

0:07:10.930,0:07:12.310
But these,

0:07:12.390,0:07:13.750
how should I put it,

0:07:13.750,0:07:16.790
these insights from the humanities seem

0:07:16.790,0:07:17.150
I feel

0:07:17.150,0:07:19.550
like they're adding to my practice, and I'm not sure

0:07:19.550,0:07:21.910
if, personally,

0:07:21.910,0:07:25.550
it would even be possible for me to continue practicing

0:07:25.550,0:07:26.030
medicine

0:07:26.030,0:07:28.710
if it weren't for these humanities-based insights.

0:07:28.990,0:07:30.590
So, it wasn't easy,

0:07:30.810,0:07:33.370
but you had the impression when combining

0:07:33.370,0:07:35.170
these different fields of study

0:07:35.170,0:07:37.570
that it somehow made things easier,

0:07:37.570,0:07:38.670
that you saw them

0:07:38.670,0:07:41.230
complementing the view of humanity,

0:07:41.230,0:07:42.910
right?
This medical perspective,

0:07:42.950,0:07:45.130
this ethnographic,

0:07:45.130,0:07:46.210
anthropological perspective

0:07:46.270,0:07:48.030
that humanities studies offer.

0:07:48.090,0:07:48.910
Were there moments

0:07:48.910,0:07:49.410
when you felt,

0:07:49.490,0:07:52.870
yes,
this somehow complements me and helps me

0:07:52.870,0:07:54.330
pursue both paths?

0:07:54.450,0:07:54.950
Yes.

0:07:55.880,0:07:56.680
Definitely.

0:07:56.740,0:07:57.340
However, I know

0:07:57.400,0:07:59.220
that this is my individual perspective,

0:07:59.280,0:08:03.080
stemming from some predispositions,

0:08:03.120,0:08:04.480
perhaps innate,

0:08:04.480,0:08:07.400
or perhaps acquired later in life,

0:08:07.480,0:08:08.880
before I started studying medicine.

0:08:08.900,0:08:11.280
I know
that not everyone needs this to

0:08:11.280,0:08:12.340
practice well.

0:08:13.360,0:08:15.480
But for me, it does.

0:08:15.880,0:08:16.760
I think

0:08:16.780,0:08:18.460
an important aspect

0:08:18.460,0:08:21.440
that these humanities studies have given me

0:08:21.440,0:08:22.180
is understanding

0:08:22.180,0:08:24.300
why patients are sometimes dissatisfied with their care,

0:08:24.320,0:08:25.780
why doctors are sometimes confused, thinking,

0:08:25.780,0:08:26.240
"Well,

0:08:26.240,0:08:27.120
I cured them,

0:08:27.120,0:08:29.500
right?"
So why does the guy still leave dissatisfied?

0:08:29.840,0:08:31.400
Thanks to the topics discussed,

0:08:31.400,0:08:34.020
for example, during cultural anthropology classes,

0:08:34.020,0:08:36.679
understanding social processes,

0:08:36.679,0:08:39.440
or the cultural perception of medicine,

0:08:39.460,0:08:41.240
perhaps it was easier for me to understand.

0:08:41.870,0:08:43.309
This made me feel less stressed;

0:08:43.309,0:08:44.950
I simply expected it

0:08:45.070,0:08:46.570
to be this way more.

0:08:46.810,0:08:47.950
That people are complex.

0:08:48.150,0:08:48.630
Specifically,

0:08:48.630,0:08:50.310
that it's not quite like that,

0:08:50.530,0:08:52.790
that I have the impression

0:08:52.790,0:08:54.930
we'll get to that in the course of our conversations,

0:08:54.930,0:08:56.670
that this mechanistic concept of the human being,

0:08:56.670,0:08:58.610
where we divide them into the body and the rest,

0:08:58.610,0:09:01.810
isn't entirely accurate.

0:09:02.370,0:09:04.050
Maybe that's why

0:09:04.050,0:09:05.050
the body is sometimes cured,

0:09:05.050,0:09:07.550
but the person is still unhappy and dissatisfied.

0:09:08.240,0:09:09.820
Maybe it's not so unexpected.

0:09:10.100,0:09:10.600
Right?

0:09:10.760,0:09:11.260
Exactly.

0:09:11.960,0:09:12.460
Thank you.

0:09:12.680,0:09:15.220
So, let's move on to

0:09:15.220,0:09:16.160
narrative medicine,

0:09:16.220,0:09:18.520
to its methodological foundations.

0:09:19.420,0:09:22.520
Could you explain to us what

0:09:22.520,0:09:24.680
you consider the most important assumptions of narrative medicine?

0:09:24.740,0:09:26.820
What are its foundations?

0:09:26.820,0:09:28.860
What does it involve in general?

0:09:28.980,0:09:32.140
And here, I'd also be interested in your perspective

0:09:32.140,0:09:35.360
on the relationship between medicine and narrative,

0:09:35.380,0:09:36.380
wouldn't you?
In this idea

0:09:36.440,0:09:37.900
of ​​narrative medicine.

0:09:38.000,0:09:40.440
How do these two powerful categories,

0:09:40.460,0:09:41.900
somewhat from different worlds, relate to each other?

0:09:42.080,0:09:45.060
That is, how does medicine draw from narrative and

0:09:45.060,0:09:48.660
the humanities, and what do these humanities offer medicine?

0:09:49.150,0:09:51.230
If we're talking 

0:09:51.230,0:09:51.690
about narrative medicine itself,

0:09:51.690,0:09:53.570
it's impossible not to mention

0:09:53.630,0:09:56.650
that it's a term coined by Rita Sharon,

0:09:56.850,0:09:59.270
a professor at Columbia University  

0:09:59.270,0:09:59.630
in New York,

0:09:59.630,0:10:02.210
a specialist in family medicine

0:10:02.210,0:10:04.530
who also experienced a similar crisis and

0:10:04.530,0:10:06.870
disillusionment with medicine at a certain point in her

0:10:06.870,0:10:07.370
life.

0:10:07.700,0:10:10.120
She began studying literary studies and

0:10:10.120,0:10:11.920
noticed points of contact—

0:10:11.980,0:10:12.940
where

0:10:12.980,0:10:15.120
medicine lacked in certain respects,

0:10:15.140,0:10:16.940
perhaps

0:10:16.940,0:10:18.000
literary studies could fill that gap.

0:10:18.040,0:10:19.140
This is also evident in her practice.

0:10:19.140,0:10:20.560
It's interesting to me, for example,

0:10:20.560,0:10:23.920
that she

0:10:23.920,0:10:26.140
approaches the topic from a humanities perspective in such a literary scholarly way.

0:10:26.140,0:10:27.840
I see a slight difference in her approach,

0:10:27.860,0:10:30.140
because cultural anthropology is already somewhat different

0:10:30.140,0:10:31.340
from literary studies,

0:10:31.340,0:10:33.200
even though it's a group of disciplines.

0:10:33.550,0:10:34.810
The same disciplines,

0:10:34.810,0:10:35.650
similar,

0:10:35.650,0:10:36.430
perhaps not the same,

0:10:36.430,0:10:37.270
Maybe it's to some extent,

0:10:37.330,0:10:37.830
the same,

0:10:37.830,0:10:39.010
yet similar.

0:10:39.310,0:10:42.050
And yet, her humanities context is a bit

0:10:42.050,0:10:44.870
different, and from the workshops she

0:10:44.870,0:10:46.090
held in Milan,

0:10:46.170,0:10:47.870
I got the impression

0:10:47.870,0:10:48.810
that she understands this, too,

0:10:48.810,0:10:49.170
that you see

0:10:49.170,0:10:52.090
that people approaching the humanities from different angles

0:10:52.090,0:10:53.630
also bring their own perspectives.

0:10:53.630,0:10:55.270
That's also the value of combining these different

0:10:55.270,0:10:55.890
perspectives.

0:10:55.970,0:10:56.630
I hope

0:10:56.650,0:10:57.150
so.

0:10:57.450,0:10:57.910
I think

0:10:57.910,0:10:59.150
we see it that way too.

0:10:59.790,0:11:02.710
She approached the topic this way and began

0:11:02.710,0:11:05.510
to fill those gaps with literary studies,

0:11:05.510,0:11:07.290
methods drawn from her

0:11:07.290,0:11:08.470
literary studies.

0:11:08.470,0:11:11.690
And somehow it began to take root as

0:11:11.690,0:11:12.990
narrative medicine.

0:11:13.050,0:11:14.890
I also heard an anecdote

0:11:14.890,0:11:17.840
that she came up with the term

0:11:17.840,0:11:20.160
because she had to include something in a grant application,

0:11:20.200,0:11:22.600
so she quickly came up with it, and it

0:11:22.600,0:11:23.200
stuck.

0:11:23.980,0:11:27.300
And this was happening at the end of the previous

0:11:27.300,0:11:27.700
century,

0:11:27.700,0:11:30.620
and at the beginning of the 21st century, the methodology began

0:11:30.620,0:11:31.760
to become more established, and

0:11:31.800,0:11:34.100
more researchers began working on it.

0:11:35.080,0:11:36.540
They started writing

0:11:36.640,0:11:37.700
down these rough rules,

0:11:38.120,0:11:38.620
speaking of narrative,

0:11:38.680,0:11:41.160
writing, and

0:11:41.180,0:11:42.380
understanding. This team, from what

0:11:42.460,0:11:42.880
I understand,

0:11:42.880,0:11:44.220
also emphasizes that

0:11:44.320,0:11:46.720
these rules aren't rigid and set

0:11:46.720,0:11:47.300
in stone;

0:11:47.440,0:11:50.760
they're constantly subject to influences ,

0:11:51.699,0:11:52.320
depending on

0:11:52.320,0:11:54.060
how the world changes .

0:11:54.260,0:11:55.140
But they also observe

0:11:55.160,0:11:57.080
how these rules shape their

0:11:57.080,0:11:59.940
narrative practice, and this practice returns to these rules.

0:11:59.940,0:12:02.820
So it's not some set of rigid commandments,

0:12:02.840,0:12:04.320
but rather a set of guidelines.

0:12:05.080,0:12:05.960
I have the impression

0:12:05.960,0:12:06.960
that, because

0:12:07.020,0:12:09.580
Rita Sharon comes from a literary studies background,

0:12:09.620,0:12:12.760
the methodology of narrative medicine draws heavily from

0:12:12.760,0:12:16.650
literary studies, and the aspect

0:12:16.650,0:12:19.650
that is perhaps most emphasized in this

0:12:19.650,0:12:20.390
methodology

0:12:20.390,0:12:22.030
is close reading.

0:12:22.150,0:12:23.090
Careful reading,

0:12:23.110,0:12:24.670
also related to attentive listening,

0:12:24.670,0:12:27.310
is a practice from literary studies

0:12:27.310,0:12:28.230
in which

0:12:28.250,0:12:29.230
each word,

0:12:29.230,0:12:34.260
each sentence, is given great importance,

0:12:34.300,0:12:36.620
its context is discussed,

0:12:36.620,0:12:40.500
its effect on the overall message

0:12:40.500,0:12:42.900
is then translated into

0:12:42.900,0:12:45.820
the practice of attentive listening with the patient in the office.

0:12:46.400,0:12:48.100
It's also worth mentioning

0:12:48.200,0:12:50.900
that narrative medicine is taught not only to practicing

0:12:50.900,0:12:51.700
clinicians

0:12:51.720,0:12:52.880
but also to patients,

0:12:52.880,0:12:55.900
so it has its various facets,

0:12:55.960,0:12:56.460
images, and

0:12:56.480,0:12:58.200
various applications in practice.

0:12:58.910,0:13:01.570
We could talk at length about this methodology.

0:13:01.570,0:13:01.970
The book

0:13:01.970,0:13:02.850
I have in front of me

0:13:02.850,0:13:04.830
is a good few hundred pages long.

0:13:05.190,0:13:06.370
I invite you to read it.

0:13:06.770,0:13:10.710
However, this very brief introduction, and I think

0:13:10.710,0:13:11.410
the
thing

0:13:11.410,0:13:13.010
that most struck me,

0:13:13.010,0:13:14.270
whether I've ever read

0:13:14.310,0:13:16.570
or studied this field,

0:13:16.690,0:13:18.510
was this important reading.

0:13:19.250,0:13:22.230
However, when I think about narrative medicine,

0:13:22.230,0:13:23.390
I also think that

0:13:23.410,0:13:24.990
this isn't something

0:13:25.010,0:13:26.970
Rita Sharon de facto invented.

0:13:26.970,0:13:28.490
She somehow codified it,

0:13:28.510,0:13:31.310
drew attention to it in academic discourse,

0:13:31.310,0:13:32.010
in medicine.

0:13:32.030,0:13:35.690
Medicine, however, began as

0:13:35.690,0:13:37.090
a global phenomenon,

0:13:37.090,0:13:38.310
as something holistic.

0:13:38.490,0:13:42.250
And initially, it didn't treat the mind and body

0:13:42.250,0:13:43.330
separately.

0:13:44.030,0:13:46.830
And we moved away from this

0:13:46.830,0:13:47.850
combined treatment of mind and body

0:13:47.850,0:13:50.010
in favor of a mechanistic approach,

0:13:50.030,0:13:52.850
because the industrial revolution gave us vast possibilities

0:13:52.850,0:13:54.830
in terms of treating individual organs,

0:13:54.830,0:13:56.490
of viewing everything under a microscope.

0:13:56.510,0:13:57.430
And let's not say

0:13:57.450,0:13:58.310
I'm criticizing this,

0:13:58.390,0:13:59.710
it was very good  

0:13:59.750,0:14:00.910
at the time.

0:14:01.050,0:14:04.610
But we've been doing this for 100-150 years.

0:14:05.460,0:14:06.820
Perhaps we're ready

0:14:06.840,0:14:08.980
to return to a more holistic view

0:14:08.980,0:14:09.600
of the human being,

0:14:09.620,0:14:10.900
because I feel

0:14:10.900,0:14:12.920
that many of the problems in modern medicine

0:14:12.920,0:14:13.540
stem from

0:14:13.600,0:14:14.760
our disjoint approach.

0:14:14.760,0:14:16.160
This is my own personal theory,

0:14:16.160,0:14:17.120
a null hypothesis,

0:14:17.120,0:14:18.480
yes,
testable,

0:14:18.480,0:14:20.180
but I observe

0:14:20.260,0:14:21.560
that because

0:14:21.620,0:14:23.960
we start from a Cartesian assumption—

0:14:23.960,0:14:26.000
that the body is a machine,

0:14:26.040,0:14:26.920
and the spirit is somewhere out there,

0:14:26.940,0:14:28.020
driving this machine,

0:14:28.060,0:14:28.900
or not driving it,

0:14:28.900,0:14:31.480
or driving its parts in different versions—

0:14:31.540,0:14:35.320
this then leads to some of our problems,

0:14:35.320,0:14:38.220
namely the low patient satisfaction with treatment—

0:14:38.260,0:14:39.400
I'm putting it roughly,

0:14:39.400,0:14:39.840
low,

0:14:39.840,0:14:41.600
lower than we'd like—perhaps

0:14:41.700,0:14:43.180
simply stems from the fact

0:14:43.200,0:14:44.480
that the patient

0:14:44.480,0:14:47.600
who comes to a doctor and seeks help

0:14:47.600,0:14:50.080
generally lacks medical training.

0:14:50.280,0:14:51.100
Exactly.

0:14:51.360,0:14:53.040
And they often want

0:14:53.040,0:14:55.060
to be seen as a whole person.

0:14:55.960,0:14:57.720
Sometimes they have trouble accepting

0:14:57.780,0:15:00.980
that a doctor sees them as an organ or as

0:15:00.980,0:15:01.620
something broken

0:15:01.660,0:15:02.640
that needs to be fixed.

0:15:02.700,0:15:05.000
I also don't want

0:15:05.040,0:15:07.080
this to sound so critical,

0:15:07.080,0:15:07.620
like, wow,

0:15:07.640,0:15:08.360
bad doctors,

0:15:08.360,0:15:10.320
they just sit behind that desk and just

0:15:10.320,0:15:12.800
tighten that screw and that's it,

0:15:12.800,0:15:13.360
that's it,

0:15:13.460,0:15:15.680
because very often it's not,

0:15:15.700,0:15:17.200
and it stems from the context

0:15:17.200,0:15:18.780
in which we practice medicine.

0:15:18.880,0:15:20.440
But I think I would agree

0:15:20.480,0:15:23.850
that narrative medicine is perhaps emerging as a

0:15:23.850,0:15:25.490
voice of protest against

0:15:25.530,0:15:27.590
where medicine has gone.

0:15:27.670,0:15:30.070
Because it's as if this turn in this very

0:15:30.070,0:15:30.750
technical,

0:15:30.750,0:15:31.370
precise,

0:15:31.370,0:15:34.330
biological direction, at a certain point, no longer

0:15:34.330,0:15:36.150
brings any good.

0:15:36.450,0:15:38.770
I've also heard such comments from people,

0:15:38.850,0:15:40.170
experienced

0:15:40.270,0:15:41.490
professors,
right,

0:15:41.490,0:15:44.210
who are familiar with narrative medicine and say,

0:15:44.290,0:15:45.350
"Well, that's nothing new,

0:15:45.370,0:15:45.870
right?"

0:15:45.870,0:15:46.490
Well, that's it,

0:15:46.530,0:15:48.090
because it's nothing new

0:15:48.090,0:15:51.030
when you look at the essence of things that way,

0:15:51.250,0:15:51.570
right?

0:15:51.570,0:15:55.750
But perhaps it needed to be given a name,

0:15:55.810,0:15:57.790
a formal framework,

0:15:57.810,0:15:58.310
right?

0:15:58.630,0:16:00.890
For the world to know,

0:16:00.910,0:16:02.610
for people to suddenly realize,

0:16:02.690,0:16:03.530
okay,

0:16:03.530,0:16:06.450
so we need to somehow return to this holistic

0:16:06.450,0:16:07.130
approach.

0:16:07.910,0:16:11.570
Try to combine this strictly medical approach with

0:16:11.590,0:16:12.810
what was missing,

0:16:12.890,0:16:15.390
precisely to see the human being in its entirety.

0:16:15.430,0:16:17.450
So perhaps these formal accents were necessary here.

0:16:17.510,0:16:18.050
Exactly.

0:16:18.150,0:16:20.010
And perhaps just one comment:

0:16:20.010,0:16:21.050
perhaps it's not

0:16:21.090,0:16:22.950
that this mechanistic medicine brings us

0:16:22.950,0:16:23.630
no benefits,

0:16:23.650,0:16:25.310
but rather that it brings us fewer and fewer benefits,

0:16:25.330,0:16:28.050
simply because of its natural development over

0:16:28.050,0:16:28.690
time,

0:16:28.830,0:16:29.510
through history.

0:16:29.960,0:16:31.040
And I have the impression

0:16:31.040,0:16:32.420
that there's more and more room

0:16:32.440,0:16:35.320
to supplement it with this return to

0:16:35.320,0:16:35.700
the roots,

0:16:35.700,0:16:37.580
because sometimes,

0:16:37.580,0:16:40.940
when we say this holism to medical students or

0:16:40.940,0:16:41.840
medical practitioners,

0:16:41.900,0:16:42.580
it causes a stir

0:16:42.620,0:16:45.460
because it's associated with so-called alternative medicine over

0:16:45.460,0:16:47.500
non-medical treatment.

0:16:48.400,0:16:51.000
The popularity of non-medical treatment may be related

0:16:51.000,0:16:53.540
to the neglect of

0:16:53.540,0:16:54.120
evidence-based medicine.

0:16:54.160,0:16:55.920
It seems to be based on facts

0:16:55.980,0:16:58.600
that good communication and good rapport with the patient

0:16:58.600,0:16:59.220
are also beneficial

0:16:59.240,0:17:02.020
and contribute to good treatment outcomes.

0:17:03.100,0:17:05.500
And the popularity of these non-medical practices

0:17:05.500,0:17:06.500
stems from the fact

0:17:06.540,0:17:08.480
that we perhaps focus too much on

0:17:08.520,0:17:11.819
targeting individual receptors, operating on them, and

0:17:11.819,0:17:12.700
affecting organs,

0:17:12.760,0:17:13.960
and less on

0:17:14.000,0:17:16.240
seeing the person in the context of their

0:17:16.240,0:17:16.800
problem,

0:17:16.800,0:17:17.680
what they're dealing with,

0:17:17.760,0:17:20.020
and that this problem is also conditioned perhaps by their style.

0:17:20.020,0:17:20.380
Life,

0:17:20.380,0:17:21.780
or perhaps some relationships,

0:17:21.819,0:17:24.140
that the response to treatment is also determined

0:17:24.140,0:17:25.420
by a whole range of factors.

0:17:25.540,0:17:27.599
There are also psychosomatic illnesses—a completely

0:17:27.599,0:17:28.400
different,

0:17:28.820,0:17:32.040
completely separate group of illnesses.

0:17:32.260,0:17:33.620
So let's reassure everyone.

0:17:33.880,0:17:36.200
Narrative medicine isn't some sort of isolated,

0:17:36.200,0:17:37.460
new medicine,

0:17:37.580,0:17:39.340
right?
It's just an approach

0:17:39.340,0:17:42.980
that allows us to supplement evidence-based medicine,

0:17:43.100,0:17:43.600
right?

0:17:43.780,0:17:47.500
It's precisely this more human,

0:17:47.560,0:17:48.200
subjective element,

0:17:48.240,0:17:48.660
to

0:17:48.660,0:17:50.900
see the person as a whole.

0:17:51.060,0:17:51.820
Besides, I thought

0:17:51.840,0:17:53.240
it wasn't a coincidence

0:17:53.440,0:17:55.860
that Rita Sharon is a family doctor,

0:17:55.860,0:17:58.840
right,
because that's also such a specific specialization,

0:17:58.840,0:18:01.300
this direct contact with many

0:18:01.300,0:18:02.280
patients

0:18:02.800,0:18:05.000
where you basically follow one patient throughout

0:18:05.000,0:18:05.600
their life,

0:18:05.600,0:18:06.500
the entire family, right,

0:18:06.620,0:18:08.720
right,
and you hear the stories,

0:18:08.720,0:18:09.220
right,

0:18:10.900,0:18:11.860
that the person comes to you with.

0:18:11.920,0:18:13.440
I couldn't imagine

0:18:13.440,0:18:14.420
an orthopedic surgeon
suddenly deciding

0:18:14.440,0:18:17.880
they lacked the humanities in their interactions with patients.

0:18:18.510,0:18:18.830
It's good

0:18:18.830,0:18:19.590
that it happened.

0:18:20.050,0:18:21.150
Indeed, I think

0:18:21.210,0:18:23.410
the very nature of this specialization may provide less

0:18:23.410,0:18:24.390
room for narrative,

0:18:24.410,0:18:26.010
but an orthopedic surgeon, on the other hand,

0:18:26.010,0:18:28.570
might be more suited to

0:18:28.570,0:18:29.950
narrative medicine.

0:18:30.070,0:18:30.610
My subjective experience,  

0:18:30.650,0:18:33.030
I'll emphasize it again,

0:18:33.050,0:18:33.790
is that

0:18:35.210,0:18:37.210
during my postgraduate internship,

0:18:37.230,0:18:40.270
when I had the orthopedic residency,

0:18:40.810,0:18:44.230
I saw patients at the outpatient clinic with a specialist,

0:18:44.230,0:18:48.400
and the orthopedic specialist at the National Health Fund

0:18:48.400,0:18:48.900
outpatient clinic

0:18:48.920,0:18:50.080
saw fifty patients

0:18:50.080,0:18:52.940
in five or six hours.

0:18:53.020,0:18:56.540
I was very impressed by the mental resilience

0:18:56.540,0:18:57.540
of this person,

0:18:57.540,0:18:59.480
especially their knowledge,

0:18:59.500,0:19:00.780
because it's a problem to solve,

0:19:00.800,0:19:01.600
a problem to solve,

0:19:01.660,0:19:02.920
and that's it, for five hours.

0:19:02.940,0:19:05.180
But also by the mental resilience of this person,

0:19:05.340,0:19:06.920
because after a day like that,

0:19:07.100,0:19:09.560
as an extra person who,

0:19:09.580,0:19:10.260
I don't know,

0:19:10.320,0:19:10.760
examines

0:19:10.760,0:19:11.240
something

0:19:11.240,0:19:12.580
or types something into the computer,

0:19:12.600,0:19:14.780
I felt like I'd been run over by a combine harvester.

0:19:14.780,0:19:18.400
And these doctors had a day like that, a marathon of seeing patients at that clinic

0:19:18.400,0:19:19.080
once or twice a week.

0:19:21.320,0:19:23.120
So I have a feeling

0:19:23.120,0:19:24.480
that if I were an orthopedist,

0:19:24.480,0:19:26.480
I'd want to pursue narrative medicine so

0:19:26.520,0:19:27.500
I could have more time,

0:19:27.620,0:19:30.360
simply to think about a patient's problem,

0:19:30.360,0:19:31.300
to sit down,

0:19:31.320,0:19:33.920
more time to type that concentration into

0:19:33.920,0:19:34.620
the computer,

0:19:34.620,0:19:37.320
instead of just "patient" and "next,"

0:19:37.320,0:19:38.500
and "next," and "next,

0:19:38.500,0:19:39.080
" and "next," and "next,

0:19:39.080,0:19:40.020
" and so on, all day long.

0:19:40.060,0:19:43.100
A truly traumatic experience.

0:19:43.260,0:19:45.360
How can you delve into fifty stories,

0:19:45.360,0:19:45.860
right?

0:19:45.880,0:19:46.540
Well,

0:19:46.540,0:19:47.440
I guess you can't.

0:19:48.220,0:19:49.320
I

0:19:49.560,0:19:54.060
guess there's a limit somewhere. And you can somehow do it with fifty broken bones,

0:19:54.220,0:19:54.720
right?

0:19:54.780,0:19:55.440
Well,

0:19:55.460,0:19:58.100
because Szalan reached for literary studies

0:19:58.100,0:20:01.400
to become a better doctor.

0:20:01.500,0:20:02.380
I wonder

0:20:02.380,0:20:05.360
if, besides literary studies ,

0:20:05.360,0:20:08.900
there's room in narrative medicine for other areas

0:20:08.900,0:20:09.880
of the humanities?

0:20:09.960,0:20:14.460
Is there a place for language researchers,

0:20:14.460,0:20:16.120
or, more precisely, culture researchers?

0:20:16.120,0:20:16.580
Because you say

0:20:16.580,0:20:17.640
you feel

0:20:17.680,0:20:21.080
that your perspective as an anthropologist is slightly

0:20:21.080,0:20:22.500
different from the literary perspective,

0:20:22.500,0:20:24.120
like Richard Sharon's.

0:20:24.180,0:20:25.620
What would that difference

0:20:25.620,0:20:26.120
be?

0:20:27.240,0:20:30.240
Even the textbook on narrative medicine has

0:20:30.240,0:20:33.460
chapters devoted to specific branches of medicine.

0:20:33.560,0:20:35.840
There is a section devoted to literary studies,

0:20:35.840,0:20:38.000
Philosophy, and also cultural anthropology,

0:20:38.000,0:20:38.500
a whole field.

0:20:38.560,0:20:39.340
I think

0:20:39.360,0:20:43.140
that this contribution of cultural anthropology to narrative medicine

0:20:43.140,0:20:46.920
is primarily visible in the study of

0:20:46.920,0:20:47.900
embodiment practices,

0:20:48.060,0:20:49.940
various social phenomena.

0:20:50.280,0:20:52.020
A more social approach,

0:20:52.060,0:20:53.960
to certain health phenomena,

0:20:54.000,0:20:54.980
is one thing. The fact

0:20:54.980,0:20:57.460
that Rita Sharon is a family medicine physician

0:20:57.460,0:20:58.040
is also important.

0:20:58.590,0:20:59.270
But it's also true

0:20:59.350,0:21:01.130
that she operates in an American context,

0:21:01.130,0:21:03.190
where healthcare is not

0:21:03.190,0:21:04.110
publicly funded.

0:21:04.670,0:21:07.690
She encounters, for example, the impact of

0:21:07.730,0:21:11.190
poverty on treatment processes.

0:21:11.250,0:21:11.810
Because here, as we

0:21:11.810,0:21:12.290
know,

0:21:12.290,0:21:13.910
poverty also affects treatment processes,

0:21:13.970,0:21:14.470
right?

0:21:15.570,0:21:17.590
Not long ago, people might not have been able to

0:21:17.590,0:21:19.070
afford medications after leaving the doctor's office.

0:21:19.110,0:21:20.910
Now, this has been somewhat limited by these

0:21:20.910,0:21:24.290
reimbursements for medications for people under 85,

0:21:24.750,0:21:26.330
those over a certain age.

0:21:26.430,0:21:27.550
We also have reimbursements for

0:21:27.880,0:21:28.620
some medications, completely

0:21:28.820,0:21:30.080
free of charge,

0:21:30.160,0:21:31.880
the whole process is complicated,

0:21:32.020,0:21:32.980
reimbursed.

0:21:33.580,0:21:34.780
However, there,

0:21:34.840,0:21:37.620
if you don't have appropriate

0:21:37.620,0:21:38.220
insurance,

0:21:38.220,0:21:40.460
you can be left either completely without access to healthcare

0:21:40.460,0:21:40.960
or

0:21:40.960,0:21:42.500
unable to purchase medications.

0:21:42.560,0:21:42.900
I remember

0:21:42.900,0:21:43.760
once reading

0:21:43.780,0:21:47.140
a piece, though not by Rita Sharon,

0:21:47.140,0:21:48.740
about a patient

0:21:48.760,0:21:50.720
who died because

0:21:50.800,0:21:52.440
he couldn't afford insulin.

0:21:52.760,0:21:54.320
This was a few years ago,

0:21:54.360,0:21:55.280
because it seems

0:21:55.300,0:21:57.600
there are some reforms

0:21:57.600,0:21:58.080
related to this in the United States now.

0:21:58.080,0:21:58.960
I don't want to go into detail

0:21:59.000,0:22:00.360
because I don't know enough about it,

0:22:00.400,0:22:03.480
but American doctors also operate in

0:22:03.480,0:22:04.240
a different context,

0:22:04.240,0:22:06.880
where access to healthcare isn't a given.

0:22:07.740,0:22:08.780
It's not assumed

0:22:08.860,0:22:10.260
that it's for everyone,

0:22:10.260,0:22:12.520
that it should be equally accessible.

0:22:12.900,0:22:14.820
So these are also social issues

0:22:14.840,0:22:16.280
that anthropology grapples with.

0:22:16.300,0:22:17.420
The problem of inequality,

0:22:17.480,0:22:19.340
which is widely discussed.

0:22:19.930,0:22:22.150
And participant observation,

0:22:22.170,0:22:23.030
for example,

0:22:23.110,0:22:24.270
what I mentioned about the principles

0:22:24.270,0:22:26.850
formulated regarding

0:22:26.870,0:22:29.490
how narrative medicine should be understood and

0:22:29.490,0:22:30.130
practiced,

0:22:30.230,0:22:32.210
is this principle of reciprocity,

0:22:32.210,0:22:33.090
this feedback,

0:22:33.090,0:22:34.470
that we form the principles,

0:22:34.470,0:22:36.570
observe how they work in our practice,

0:22:36.590,0:22:37.730
then return to these principles,

0:22:37.850,0:22:38.690
reformulate them.

0:22:38.730,0:22:40.790
This also draws from methodology,

0:22:40.790,0:22:42.170
cultural anthropology,

0:22:42.210,0:22:44.410
which is the flagship method.

0:22:44.410,0:22:45.890
Participant observation is

0:22:45.950,0:22:48.330
where you enter a given environment.

0:22:48.920,0:22:49.800
You experience

0:22:49.800,0:22:52.840
how a given social group functions

0:22:52.840,0:22:54.080
based on your own experiences,

0:22:54.100,0:22:56.219
then you create,

0:22:56.219,0:22:56.620
write,

0:22:56.620,0:22:58.220
and act on what

0:22:58.300,0:22:59.140
you've experienced.

0:22:59.280,0:23:02.480
This also resonates in narrative medicine.

0:23:02.500,0:23:05.160
Well, that's all I can say about my

0:23:05.160,0:23:05.480
field,

0:23:05.480,0:23:06.600
cultural anthropology, for example,

0:23:06.660,0:23:08.320
but also the influence of philosophy,

0:23:08.320,0:23:08.860
in other words,

0:23:08.940,0:23:09.440
what I mentioned,

0:23:09.460,0:23:11.060
that unfortunate

0:23:11.080,0:23:11.660
Cartesian dualism,

0:23:11.700,0:23:14.020
which I'm so terribly attached to.

0:23:14.200,0:23:16.400
This, in turn,

0:23:16.400,0:23:17.760
involves a philosophical approach to

0:23:17.800,0:23:20.500
how medical practice was shaped.

0:23:20.500,0:23:22.640
Let's face it,

0:23:22.640,0:23:24.920
every reflection on the world

0:23:24.960,0:23:27.000
has its origins in philosophy,

0:23:27.000,0:23:29.660
right?
So medicine also has its origins in philosophy,

0:23:29.680,0:23:31.980
because it is a science for this simple reason.

0:23:32.040,0:23:34.960
And philosophical approaches also shape the way

0:23:35.180,0:23:37.680
a given science develops in a given region.

0:23:37.700,0:23:39.640
Because we are also dealing with a type of medicine

0:23:39.720,0:23:41.960
that developed here in Europe for some

0:23:41.960,0:23:42.900
social and

0:23:42.900,0:23:43.700
cultural reasons.

0:23:44.000,0:23:46.120
Not, of course, as language experts.

0:23:46.780,0:23:48.140
I'm happy with all the fragments,

0:23:48.140,0:23:50.420
Where does anything about linguistics appear?

0:23:51.120,0:23:52.520
Although there's not much of it.

0:23:53.060,0:23:53.820
I was glad, of course,

0:23:53.840,0:23:57.260
that there was talk of conceptual metaphor,

0:23:57.280,0:23:58.940
notional metaphor, and so on,

0:23:59.020,0:24:00.740
perhaps a bit of cognitive poetics,

0:24:00.740,0:24:05.220
so it's like these areas don't really

0:24:05.220,0:24:07.920
represent the achievements of linguistics to a great extent.

0:24:07.940,0:24:08.620
But I'm thinking, well,

0:24:08.680,0:24:10.220
maybe the specificity of

0:24:10.240,0:24:11.520
Rita Sharon's studies,

0:24:11.640,0:24:12.780
right?
And also that

0:24:12.820,0:24:15.540
the United States is dominated by a different kind

0:24:15.540,0:24:16.320
of linguistics,

0:24:16.360,0:24:18.660
perhaps less cognitive.

0:24:18.760,0:24:21.760
It's more accepted in Europe,

0:24:21.780,0:24:23.700
so that's how I answered it myself.

0:24:23.780,0:24:25.180
But those moments

0:24:25.180,0:24:27.360
when we talk about close reading, when

0:24:27.380,0:24:29.800
we look at the formal structure of the text,

0:24:29.820,0:24:30.720
at word-by-word

0:24:30.800,0:24:31.960
contact with the word

0:24:32.080,0:24:32.980
—that's my area of ​​expertise, is

0:24:32.980,0:24:36.480
n't it?
So we're kind of looking at the form of the word from every angle,

0:24:36.540,0:24:37.400
wondering,

0:24:37.420,0:24:39.620
right,
in what tense form, and so on,

0:24:39.720,0:24:40.420
what significance it has.

0:24:40.560,0:24:41.160
So I have the impression

0:24:41.160,0:24:43.780
that for a linguist there's something there too.

0:24:44.060,0:24:44.560
Absolutely,

0:24:44.560,0:24:45.020
not more so.

0:24:45.020,0:24:47.820
But these are also things that border on psychoanalysis,

0:24:47.860,0:24:49.000
and some methods,

0:24:49.160,0:24:51.840
but also serve precisely through linguistics and

0:24:51.840,0:24:55.740
the study of words to release such

0:24:55.740,0:24:56.740
tensions,

0:24:56.940,0:24:59.060
to reveal contexts,

0:24:59.060,0:24:59.880
illnesses.

0:25:00.020,0:25:01.200
Identifying metaphors.

0:25:01.290,0:25:01.610
Sure,

0:25:01.610,0:25:01.930
right?

0:25:01.930,0:25:02.410
Exactly.

0:25:02.410,0:25:04.410
Here we have linguistic tools

0:25:04.450,0:25:06.790
that can also be useful.

0:25:06.950,0:25:08.930
What if we were to organize

0:25:08.930,0:25:09.770
the terminology a bit more,

0:25:09.790,0:25:12.330
or the scope of such broad concepts

0:25:12.330,0:25:14.170
as narrative medicine,

0:25:14.190,0:25:15.610
humanistic medicine,

0:25:15.650,0:25:17.050
medical humanities?

0:25:17.390,0:25:17.990
I don't know,

0:25:18.010,0:25:19.910
would you perhaps try to pinpoint

0:25:19.990,0:25:21.710
what narrative medicine is?

0:25:21.850,0:25:24.470
Is it part of humanistic medicine,

0:25:24.470,0:25:26.310
or can it be seen as part of

0:25:26.310,0:25:26.890
medical humanities?

0:25:26.910,0:25:28.250
I'm actually drawn to these two concepts

0:25:28.270,0:25:29.470
because they're very similar.

0:25:29.530,0:25:30.030
Yes,

0:25:30.250,0:25:33.110
but they emphasize different things,

0:25:33.110,0:25:33.610
right?

0:25:33.610,0:25:35.070
Humanistic medicine,

0:25:35.070,0:25:36.030
as I understand it,

0:25:36.110,0:25:37.150
is the kind of medicine

0:25:37.150,0:25:38.710
that suddenly stumbles upon itself and says,

0:25:38.750,0:25:40.410
no,
we're missing something here,

0:25:40.430,0:25:43.530
right?
We want to complement our practice with some

0:25:43.530,0:25:45.870
humanistic components, and I think

0:25:45.890,0:25:48.890
that's where narrative medicine emerged,

0:25:48.930,0:25:52.510
right?
But beyond that, we also have this vast field

0:25:52.510,0:25:54.790
to which our project is devoted—

0:25:54.950,0:25:57.990
the whole medical humanities thing,

0:25:57.990,0:25:58.330
right?

0:25:58.330,0:25:59.410
And it's like,

0:26:00.010,0:26:01.250
"A bit of a different angle,

0:26:01.330,0:26:05.510
" right?
We look at

0:26:05.510,0:26:06.110
medical problems from a humanities perspective.

0:26:06.130,0:26:08.650
You have access to both perspectives,

0:26:08.650,0:26:09.290
so you'd know that.

0:26:09.290,0:26:10.190
I hope

0:26:10.190,0:26:10.690
I do.

0:26:10.870,0:26:11.750
I'll say right away

0:26:11.750,0:26:13.050
that these distinctions

0:26:13.050,0:26:14.490
aren't my cup of tea ,

0:26:14.550,0:26:15.970
because for me, these are concepts

0:26:15.970,0:26:18.190
that overlap significantly and have many

0:26:18.190,0:26:20.430
common elements.

0:26:20.430,0:26:22.190
I don't know
if I'm seeing this correctly,

0:26:22.210,0:26:23.010
but I'll say it right away.

0:26:23.600,0:26:26.220
Narrative medicine is a formalized concept

0:26:26.220,0:26:27.380
introduced by Rita Sharon,

0:26:27.520,0:26:28.540
who studied it at Columbia,

0:26:28.780,0:26:30.840
and can be used for master's and

0:26:30.840,0:26:32.360
postgraduate degrees.

0:26:32.440,0:26:34.720
Courses in this field are taught

0:26:34.720,0:26:36.400
in Poland,

0:26:36.560,0:26:37.260
Italy,

0:26:37.260,0:26:39.180
and various places around the world,

0:26:39.220,0:26:42.720
drawing on Rita Sharon's practice.

0:26:42.880,0:26:44.060
They're inspired by

0:26:44.100,0:26:44.920
what's being done at Columbia.

0:26:45.600,0:26:47.100
Humanistic medicine.

0:26:47.470,0:26:48.510
This is a broader concept,

0:26:48.550,0:26:50.130
which I feel encompasses

0:26:50.130,0:26:50.750
narrative medicine.

0:26:50.810,0:26:51.810
Humanistic medicine,

0:26:51.810,0:26:52.730
as you've already said,

0:26:52.730,0:26:54.330
is medical practice

0:26:54.350,0:26:57.270
that has shifted its focus to the humanities due

0:26:57.270,0:26:59.050
to a sense of deficiency.

0:27:00.270,0:27:04.610
Psychiatry is a specific example here,

0:27:04.610,0:27:05.830
but then again, Kempiński is the whole story,

0:27:05.890,0:27:06.230
isn't it?

0:27:06.230,0:27:06.850
Yes.

0:27:06.890,0:27:07.810
This is medicine,

0:27:07.810,0:27:09.150
humanistic psychiatry,

0:27:09.150,0:27:13.070
which looks at social and cultural

0:27:13.070,0:27:14.190
contexts,

0:27:14.210,0:27:15.010
at the patient.

0:27:15.450,0:27:17.650
It wants to see the patient holistically,

0:27:17.650,0:27:18.730
not just biologically—

0:27:18.730,0:27:19.570
these are such attempts.

0:27:19.630,0:27:20.990
But there's also Władysław Biegański,

0:27:21.070,0:27:22.650
who was an internist,

0:27:22.670,0:27:24.810
perhaps even an infectious disease specialist, and a philosopher as well.

0:27:24.890,0:27:27.510
He also pondered

0:27:27.590,0:27:32.070
what philosophical insights could offer medicine as

0:27:32.070,0:27:32.810
a science,

0:27:32.830,0:27:34.270
simply as an exact science.

0:27:34.270,0:27:37.370
He only drew from philosophy some reflections,

0:27:37.370,0:27:40.670
contextualizing exact practice,

0:27:40.710,0:27:42.350
medical practice, and

0:27:42.410,0:27:43.410
research.

0:27:43.920,0:27:44.700
This is Biegański,

0:27:44.800,0:27:46.260
this is Szczeklik,

0:27:46.380,0:27:47.340
right?

0:27:47.620,0:27:49.280
Also humanistic medicine,

0:27:49.280,0:27:53.080
even though he was also a scientist

0:27:53.080,0:27:54.180
closely connected to exact sciences,

0:27:54.200,0:27:58.920
because he also undertook research on prostacyclin at

0:27:58.920,0:28:00.180
the Department of Pharmacology—

0:28:00.200,0:28:02.440
in other words, exact exactness.

0:28:02.500,0:28:07.360
And yet,

0:28:07.360,0:28:09.540
the life contexts of his patients also provoked considerable reflection.

0:28:09.560,0:28:10.840
He was known for his

0:28:10.900,0:28:11.680
interest, after all,

0:28:11.800,0:28:14.360
he founded this entire clinic,

0:28:14.360,0:28:16.860
which was once located on Skawińska Street,

0:28:16.860,0:28:19.040
where he treated pulmonary patients.

0:28:19.630,0:28:21.930
And in a more humanistic way, he had

0:28:21.930,0:28:23.090
his piano,

0:28:23.090,0:28:23.990
which he supposedly played.

0:28:24.010,0:28:25.770
Unfortunately, I didn't meet Professor Szczeklik,

0:28:25.810,0:28:26.390
as

0:28:26.430,0:28:28.190
he died a few months before

0:28:28.230,0:28:29.770
I had the opportunity to begin my studies in Krakow.

0:28:30.330,0:28:31.770
But his legacy lives on.

0:28:32.230,0:28:32.730
Definitely.

0:28:32.870,0:28:35.350
And these are the contexts of humanistic medicine.

0:28:35.390,0:28:36.690
And medical humanities,

0:28:36.750,0:28:40.050
or, as we could very simply

0:28:40.050,0:28:40.510
put,

0:28:40.510,0:28:42.250
writing about medicine and illness.

0:28:42.510,0:28:45.130
So, reflections on

0:28:45.190,0:28:47.290
how we use language in medicine.

0:28:47.350,0:28:48.430
Do we say "surgeon"

0:28:48.450,0:28:49.910
or "female surgeon,

0:28:49.910,0:28:50.630
" or "surgeonwoman,"

0:28:50.750,0:28:51.510
or "surgeonwoman"?

0:28:52.090,0:28:54.810
Or how we position it?

0:28:54.850,0:28:57.170
Because this also somehow resonates with, for example,

0:28:57.170,0:28:58.450
the Polish women in medicine initiative.

0:28:58.510,0:29:00.230
How do girls see themselves,

0:29:00.330,0:29:01.890
what are their specific characteristics?

0:29:01.890,0:29:02.830
Do they feel invisible?

0:29:02.970,0:29:03.890
Do they feel visible

0:29:03.890,0:29:04.770
or invisible?

0:29:05.390,0:29:05.750
Exactly.

0:29:05.750,0:29:06.590
Whether they prefer one

0:29:06.650,0:29:07.570
way or another.

0:29:07.650,0:29:08.390
And if they prefer one way,

0:29:08.410,0:29:08.870
why?

0:29:08.870,0:29:09.890
After all, that's important too.

0:29:09.970,0:29:10.850
It adds to

0:29:10.870,0:29:12.330
how we function.

0:29:12.330,0:29:13.690
It somehow determines

0:29:13.710,0:29:15.210
how we function in medicine.

0:29:15.250,0:29:15.830
As women,

0:29:15.890,0:29:16.590
as doctors,

0:29:16.590,0:29:17.090
as people

0:29:17.110,0:29:19.330
working under contract with a fund.

0:29:19.370,0:29:20.090
As people

0:29:20.110,0:29:21.210
working privately.

0:29:21.290,0:29:22.670
After all, all of this matters.

0:29:22.850,0:29:24.830
So all of this is medical humanities,

0:29:24.850,0:29:26.930
which allows us to better understand our roles.

0:29:27.130,0:29:29.480
Our role for each other,

0:29:29.480,0:29:30.480
our role towards the people

0:29:30.640,0:29:32.600
we provide our services to.

0:29:32.840,0:29:35.320
Perhaps we should also try

0:29:35.320,0:29:36.220
to think about narrative medicine,

0:29:36.220,0:29:39.060
what it looks like in clinical practice.

0:29:39.260,0:29:40.200
We've already mentioned

0:29:40.200,0:29:42.400
that the relationship in the United States is different than

0:29:42.400,0:29:45.580
here.
Here, access to medical care is indeed

0:29:45.580,0:29:47.340
guaranteed for everyone,

0:29:47.420,0:29:49.800
but we also have private medical care.

0:29:49.820,0:29:54.360
You can sometimes feel the difference between the quality

0:29:54.380,0:29:55.980
and duration of care

0:29:56.430,0:29:58.010
in the private sector.

0:29:58.010,0:30:00.930
What does a doctor's daily practice look like, and

0:30:00.930,0:30:03.690
is there a place for narrative medicine here,

0:30:04.410,0:30:05.070
in our country?

0:30:05.070,0:30:07.190
Because our system is so organized,

0:30:07.230,0:30:07.570
isn't it?

0:30:07.570,0:30:08.390
It's impossible,

0:30:08.450,0:30:10.090
there's not enough time,

0:30:10.170,0:30:10.670
and so on.

0:30:10.890,0:30:13.190
Is there even a place for narrative,

0:30:13.210,0:30:15.670
for the practice of narrative medicine here?

0:30:16.270,0:30:18.030
So we're getting closer to a topic

0:30:18.030,0:30:19.810
I consider my passion,

0:30:19.810,0:30:22.330
That is, physician burnout.

0:30:22.540,0:30:26.240
And I'd like to talk more about

0:30:26.240,0:30:27.920
the professional performance of medical workers,

0:30:27.920,0:30:29.280
but I might not go into detail

0:30:29.340,0:30:30.980
because I simply know more about doctors;

0:30:30.980,0:30:32.180
I've been more interested in them,

0:30:32.180,0:30:32.600
I've read about them,

0:30:32.600,0:30:33.780
and that's my environment,

0:30:33.780,0:30:34.400
so I know them,

0:30:34.440,0:30:34.800
but I think

0:30:34.800,0:30:36.480
nurses, for example, are also familiar with them,

0:30:36.640,0:30:37.140
right?

0:30:37.440,0:30:37.940
Probably.

0:30:38.520,0:30:39.020
I don't

0:30:39.800,0:30:43.100
think there's no place for narrative medicine in the Polish

0:30:43.100,0:30:44.060
healthcare system.

0:30:44.100,0:30:44.860
I think
there is.

0:30:45.160,0:30:47.060
However, implementing it,

0:30:47.120,0:30:49.300
even if it were to exist,

0:30:49.300,0:30:50.200
would be difficult.

0:30:50.460,0:30:52.840
Because, de facto, there's no

0:30:52.840,0:30:53.300
place for it today,

0:30:53.300,0:30:55.360
because there are time limits,

0:30:55.460,0:30:57.000
patient admission limits, and

0:30:57.000,0:30:59.320
billing with the National Health Fund (NFZ) is handled in a particular

0:30:59.400,0:31:00.180
way.

0:31:00.400,0:31:03.820
And right now, there's no room to

0:31:03.840,0:31:06.100
see a patient through primary care and

0:31:06.100,0:31:07.460
talk to them for half an hour.

0:31:07.640,0:31:10.700
Because there's a line of snotty people in the hallway,

0:31:10.760,0:31:12.120
nervous

0:31:12.140,0:31:13.860
about whether they'll get to see the doctor

0:31:13.860,0:31:14.220
or not,

0:31:14.220,0:31:15.440
whether the doctor will stay after hours

0:31:15.440,0:31:16.060
to see them

0:31:16.080,0:31:16.580
or not.

0:31:17.580,0:31:18.760
They're already arguing with each other about

0:31:18.760,0:31:20.040
who was first in line.

0:31:20.100,0:31:20.540
A queue,

0:31:20.540,0:31:21.040
yes.

0:31:21.660,0:31:22.580
Queue philosophy.

0:31:22.720,0:31:23.200
Exactly.

0:31:23.200,0:31:24.480
Then they argue with the doctor about

0:31:24.480,0:31:25.580
who was first in line,

0:31:25.620,0:31:27.040
so that's how it is at the moment.

0:31:27.280,0:31:29.880
And we're faced with a moral dilemma here.

0:31:29.940,0:31:31.360
Should we devote as much time to the patient

0:31:31.440,0:31:34.020
as they would like, and how much would be good

0:31:34.020,0:31:36.500
for the patient, for the patient and for us as well,

0:31:36.540,0:31:38.560
for our own mental health?

0:31:38.660,0:31:41.140
Or should we admit all 30 people

0:31:41.360,0:31:42.640
standing outside the door,

0:31:42.680,0:31:44.140
because that's an ethical issue,

0:31:44.160,0:31:44.660
right?

0:31:45.899,0:31:48.360
One decision has its advantages and the other has its

0:31:48.360,0:31:48.860
advantages.

0:31:48.940,0:31:51.200
Should we admit 10 people during the day and do it

0:31:51.200,0:31:51.520
well,

0:31:51.520,0:31:52.220
or admit 30

0:31:52.420,0:31:54.360
so that their needs are met,

0:31:54.360,0:31:56.720
so that they're met somehow,

0:31:56.740,0:31:57.440
at least somewhat,

0:31:57.620,0:31:58.860
but still.

0:31:59.100,0:32:01.040
Should we issue sick leave certificates to these people.

0:32:01.040,0:32:02.200
And so that the system continues to run.

0:32:02.320,0:32:02.780
Exactly.

0:32:02.780,0:32:03.800
And I do

0:32:03.840,0:32:05.220
n't think there's a good answer to this right now

0:32:05.220,0:32:05.840
.
But I think

0:32:05.860,0:32:08.400
there's room for implementing narrative medicine

0:32:08.400,0:32:08.880
, it

0:32:08.880,0:32:10.740
just requires systemic changes.

0:32:11.000,0:32:12.160
Because in the system

0:32:12.180,0:32:12.600
as it is,

0:32:12.600,0:32:13.900
I don't really see it happening.

0:32:14.480,0:32:16.980
However, considering the burnout of

0:32:16.980,0:32:18.340
healthcare workers,

0:32:18.400,0:32:19.800
the flight to other sectors,

0:32:19.800,0:32:23.020
the flight from the public sector to the private sector, and

0:32:23.040,0:32:24.500
this exodus of specialists, especially

0:32:24.500,0:32:26.740
since residents are generally bound by an employment contract

0:32:26.740,0:32:28.300
and must be in the public system—

0:32:28.300,0:32:30.840
not always in that way,

0:32:30.920,0:32:33.520
but in the vast majority of cases—

0:32:33.520,0:32:34.300
I think

0:32:34.320,0:32:35.540
that if we don't do something

0:32:35.560,0:32:37.500
to start encouraging people to work in

0:32:37.500,0:32:37.960
medicine,

0:32:37.960,0:32:40.660
we'll wake up in a bad state in,

0:32:40.760,0:32:42.400
I don't know,
say 10 years from now,

0:32:42.500,0:32:43.000
right?

0:32:43.370,0:32:45.650
So I see a role for narrative medicine in preventing

0:32:45.650,0:32:46.450
this burnout.

0:32:46.510,0:32:50.090
Narrative medicine serves not only to recognize

0:32:50.090,0:32:50.870
the needs of patients

0:32:50.870,0:32:52.210
but also of medical staff.

0:32:52.210,0:32:54.430
It's about recognizing not only the patient's role in

0:32:54.430,0:32:55.210
their family,

0:32:55.210,0:32:55.630
social,

0:32:55.630,0:32:56.210
and cultural context,

0:32:56.290,0:32:57.410
their life story,

0:32:57.490,0:32:59.890
but also seeing my relationship—

0:32:59.890,0:33:00.770
me and the patient

0:33:00.770,0:33:01.930
sitting across from me.

0:33:02.070,0:33:05.530
So I also add to this understanding, perhaps

0:33:05.530,0:33:08.270
medical practitioners themselves—

0:33:08.430,0:33:09.990
understanding:

0:33:10.720,0:33:12.840
Why do I feel more tired lately?

0:33:12.840,0:33:14.920
Or why don't I feel like coming to work?

0:33:15.400,0:33:17.480
Why are these patients starting to annoy me?

0:33:17.480,0:33:17.900
For example,

0:33:17.900,0:33:19.700
why do I feel like sending them out the door?

0:33:20.120,0:33:22.860
Instead of snapping at them, like,

0:33:22.860,0:33:24.660
"I don't have the energy anymore and you can go away,"

0:33:24.840,0:33:27.000
maybe we should just pause

0:33:27.060,0:33:29.920
because the system doesn't give us the space.

0:33:30.120,0:33:31.400
So if we feel

0:33:31.400,0:33:32.500
the system isn't giving us the space,

0:33:32.520,0:33:34.220
then we don't give ourselves the space either.

0:33:34.220,0:33:35.660
It's a domino effect.

0:33:36.269,0:33:38.710
I see narrative medicine as a tool

0:33:38.730,0:33:40.010
that could help

0:33:40.050,0:33:41.790
counteract this,

0:33:41.790,0:33:43.890
even if only to a small extent, and I'll also say right away

0:33:43.910,0:33:45.830
that it's probably not the optimal solution for everyone

0:33:45.830,0:33:46.150
.

0:33:46.150,0:33:48.810
I'd like to see systemic shifts

0:33:48.870,0:33:50.770
that would allow for the implementation of these solutions.

0:33:50.830,0:33:51.610
That's how I would put it.

0:33:51.820,0:33:52.660
But how do we do it,

0:33:52.760,0:33:55.300
right?
I feel it's primarily about long-term success.

0:33:55.540,0:33:55.960
But I think it's

0:33:55.960,0:33:57.160
about stimulating that mountain

0:33:57.160,0:33:58.280
that can make a difference.

0:33:58.280,0:33:59.020
Well, yes,
yes.

0:33:59.340,0:34:02.360
As a medical community, we raise many issues.

0:34:02.400,0:34:04.320
Burnout is one of them.

0:34:04.480,0:34:07.720
No one yet proposes narrative medicine as

0:34:07.720,0:34:09.699
such,
using that phrase. For example

0:34:09.900,0:34:10.300
,

0:34:10.300,0:34:11.860
the issue of documentation is often raised

0:34:11.860,0:34:12.639
.

0:34:12.679,0:34:13.179
And I have the impression

0:34:13.179,0:34:14.880
that when we talk about

0:34:14.900,0:34:17.940
filling out documentation,

0:34:17.960,0:34:20.719
which takes more time, and we don't have time for

0:34:20.719,0:34:21.100
the patient

0:34:21.100,0:34:22.360
because we have to look at paperwork,

0:34:22.360,0:34:24.600
we're talking about this lack of time to

0:34:24.600,0:34:27.199
understand ourselves better in this relationship.

0:34:27.440,0:34:30.080
And the practice of narrative medicine assumes somewhere

0:34:30.080,0:34:30.639
that

0:34:30.659,0:34:33.239
the doctor can take these

0:34:33.239,0:34:34.020
parallel notes,

0:34:34.040,0:34:35.440
right?
So how do I even think about

0:34:35.480,0:34:38.120
where else I can squeeze in time to

0:34:38.120,0:34:39.719
take parallel notes during this visit ?

0:34:39.719,0:34:41.020
And I also have the impression

0:34:41.020,0:34:43.340
that sometimes when I talk to doctors about

0:34:43.340,0:34:44.000
narrative medicine,

0:34:44.000,0:34:45.820
they laugh a little at me.

0:34:45.840,0:34:46.340
They say,

0:34:46.340,0:34:49.219
"Where else am I supposed to take mindful notes?"

0:34:50.670,0:34:51.710
This is also a good time

0:34:51.730,0:34:52.310
to say

0:34:52.350,0:34:53.350
that's not what I mean,

0:34:53.429,0:34:55.590
to squeeze that into those seven minutes,

0:34:55.690,0:34:57.270
because that would be terrible,

0:34:57.270,0:34:57.770
I think.

0:34:57.950,0:34:59.670
It's just to change the system so

0:34:59.730,0:35:02.130
there's at least a little more space for it.

0:35:02.840,0:35:04.740
But to start practicing,

0:35:04.820,0:35:05.960
you have to learn,

0:35:05.960,0:35:06.460
right?

0:35:06.680,0:35:09.780
And maybe we could talk about those narrative medicine workshops

0:35:09.780,0:35:12.680
for a while,

0:35:12.680,0:35:15.200
because it's amazing

0:35:15.200,0:35:16.720
that you attended one.

0:35:17.180,0:35:17.660
Please

0:35:17.660,0:35:19.360
tell me, and all of us,

0:35:19.420,0:35:20.960
what it's like,

0:35:21.200,0:35:22.980
right?
What do these workshops look like?

0:35:23.180,0:35:23.960
How long do they last?

0:35:24.060,0:35:24.800
Is it one day,

0:35:24.840,0:35:25.440
two hours,

0:35:25.440,0:35:26.960
maybe a two-day meeting?

0:35:26.960,0:35:28.140
And what do you do during them?

0:35:28.540,0:35:28.860
The fact

0:35:28.860,0:35:31.940
that we attended the Milan

0:35:31.940,0:35:34.600
workshop with the book editor,

0:35:34.600,0:35:34.980
Hubert, and Mateusz,

0:35:34.980,0:35:35.420
not just once,

0:35:35.420,0:35:38.400
but later Mateusz and Hubert also led a

0:35:38.400,0:35:39.200
working group

0:35:39.280,0:35:40.600
where they led,

0:35:40.660,0:35:42.960
we conducted our own work on

0:35:42.980,0:35:44.180
how to manage this.

0:35:44.300,0:35:47.520
The workshops with Rita were our model,

0:35:47.560,0:35:51.300
but also, drawing from the practice of narrative medicine,

0:35:51.300,0:35:54.510
we conducted participant observation of these workshops

0:35:54.510,0:35:56.630
within our own working group,

0:35:56.630,0:35:59.710
also with people involved in this practice and

0:35:59.710,0:36:02.070
disseminating this approach in Krakow.

0:36:02.750,0:36:04.050
As for Rita,

0:36:04.130,0:36:07.710
Professor Sharon had a phase for discussing

0:36:07.710,0:36:10.910
works of art and led several

0:36:10.910,0:36:11.470
workshops

0:36:11.490,0:36:13.350
in a row where paintings were discussed.

0:36:13.390,0:36:14.850
We focused on paintings,

0:36:14.850,0:36:17.670
so we shared our observations and

0:36:17.670,0:36:18.970
feelings about the painting.

0:36:19.010,0:36:21.530
Then we wrote a short text related to the painting.

0:36:21.570,0:36:21.890
People

0:36:21.890,0:36:23.430
who wanted to read the text

0:36:23.430,0:36:25.250
had this phase.

0:36:25.350,0:36:26.370
Was that creative writing?

0:36:26.430,0:36:27.130
Yes,
yes.

0:36:27.370,0:36:29.050
They had a chance to share

0:36:29.290,0:36:30.330
their text.

0:36:30.430,0:36:30.930
Those

0:36:30.970,0:36:31.930
who didn't feel like it

0:36:31.930,0:36:32.610
didn't have to.

0:36:32.790,0:36:34.590
The professor offered her own comments.

0:36:34.690,0:36:36.210
Participants could also share,

0:36:36.210,0:36:39.350
but we were doing a close reading of a painting.

0:36:41.210,0:36:42.370
So it's possible too.

0:36:42.470,0:36:46.070
Mateusz and Hubert, I also once pored over

0:36:46.070,0:36:48.150
a musical work.

0:36:49.130,0:36:51.310
So this close inquiry takes on various forms.

0:36:51.470,0:36:53.490
Not just literary texts,

0:36:53.490,0:36:54.050
as it turns out.

0:36:54.610,0:36:55.890
Cultural texts.
Cultural texts,

0:36:55.890,0:36:56.630
more broadly speaking.

0:36:56.650,0:36:57.630
Paintings,

0:36:57.630,0:36:58.870
musical works,

0:36:58.970,0:36:59.970
and,

0:37:00.030,0:37:02.110
I don't know,
theater performances could also be included here.

0:37:02.150,0:37:02.810
Probably yes,

0:37:02.890,0:37:05.370
although I don't know from my own photography.

0:37:05.370,0:37:06.090
Well, some

0:37:06.150,0:37:07.570
other codes,
right ?

0:37:07.710,0:37:09.590
Because it's all about this methodology of

0:37:09.590,0:37:11.410
mindfulness,

0:37:11.450,0:37:13.530
drawn from literary studies,

0:37:13.550,0:37:15.710
but also from mindfulness practice.

0:37:16.490,0:37:19.610
We began these Krakow narrative medicine meetings

0:37:19.610,0:37:21.650
with a short mindfulness practice.

0:37:21.790,0:37:24.310
A strictly mindful

0:37:24.310,0:37:24.990
mindfulness practice.

0:37:25.150,0:37:28.730
Where in Poland can you get into a

0:37:28.730,0:37:29.850
narrative medicine workshop,

0:37:29.850,0:37:31.710
or perhaps these narrative meetings?

0:37:31.930,0:37:34.150
Krakow is certainly one such place.

0:37:36.030,0:37:38.170
It's the Medical Humanities Club,

0:37:38.170,0:37:39.450
right?
At the Jagiellonian University.

0:37:39.550,0:37:42.130
It's now called the

0:37:42.130,0:37:42.970
Medical Humanities Laboratory,

0:37:43.010,0:37:43.330
right?

0:37:43.330,0:37:44.730
Because

0:37:44.790,0:37:47.070
we finished our studies and stopped being a club.

0:37:47.390,0:37:47.910
Yes,

0:37:48.030,0:37:48.530
yes.

0:37:48.870,0:37:50.070
But the idea persists,

0:37:50.070,0:37:50.750
right?
The idea persists,

0:37:50.750,0:37:51.190
yes.

0:37:51.190,0:37:53.970
There will be a three-day meeting in Leńcze near Krakow,

0:37:54.510,0:37:55.750
with several narrative sessions.

0:37:56.460,0:37:57.500
It also seems

0:37:57.540,0:37:58.320
that bringing together people

0:37:58.520,0:38:01.340
who are already working on this

0:38:01.360,0:38:02.180
isn't a criterion;

0:38:02.180,0:38:04.060
it just happens

0:38:04.080,0:38:04.860
that those

0:38:04.920,0:38:08.540
focused on working on methodology and

0:38:08.540,0:38:10.880
refining this methodology somehow

0:38:10.880,0:38:12.280
meet.

0:38:12.700,0:38:14.260
We're certainly not the only ones.

0:38:14.620,0:38:15.840
Is there a source

0:38:15.840,0:38:18.160
where one can learn about such

0:38:18.160,0:38:18.820
planned events?

0:38:18.820,0:38:19.320
There is.

0:38:20.080,0:38:20.860
I think

0:38:20.900,0:38:23.640
there's a website called narrativemedicine.less.pl

0:38:24.100,0:38:27.040
There's also a website for the Medical Humanities Laboratory

0:38:27.040,0:38:28.560
right here in Krakowska Street.

0:38:29.210,0:38:32.170
Our Medical Communication Studies also sometimes

0:38:32.170,0:38:33.410
engage in such things,

0:38:33.490,0:38:35.110
but rarely, only occasionally.

0:38:35.110,0:38:37.910
However, we encourage you to contact

0:38:37.910,0:38:39.170
us personally.
That doesn't mean

0:38:39.210,0:38:41.770
it's not happening,

0:38:41.850,0:38:42.490
but you have to let us know

0:38:42.550,0:38:43.310
what you'll organize.

0:38:43.510,0:38:44.010
Exactly

0:38:44.490,0:38:47.170
We're committed to this, and we're constantly on the subject,

0:38:47.190,0:38:49.130
so you can simply

0:38:49.130,0:38:50.290
contact us directly, using different names.

0:38:50.310,0:38:51.510
And call a meeting.

0:38:51.770,0:38:52.270
Yes,

0:38:52.270,0:38:54.190
the meeting with Rita Sharon, for example, consisted of

0:38:54.190,0:38:56.390
two such hour-long meetings with a break.

0:38:56.490,0:38:58.090
So, if you don't have to go to university,

0:38:58.090,0:38:58.940
but for a master's degree, no.

0:38:59.520,0:39:02.380
You can also look for such places in our country.

0:39:02.460,0:39:03.140
Definitely yes.

0:39:03.260,0:39:05.460
But you don't even have to go overseas,

0:39:05.560,0:39:08.860
because some of the courses offered by Colombia

0:39:08.860,0:39:09.540
are online.

0:39:09.720,0:39:12.120
And you can sign up for such courses and participate

0:39:12.120,0:39:14.660
in meetings with the founders of this field.

0:39:14.680,0:39:15.800
A lot is happening in Sweden too,

0:39:15.860,0:39:16.880
right?
As you said,

0:39:16.880,0:39:18.160
right?
Or in Germany, I suspect

0:39:18.160,0:39:18.780
it will be established in Europe.

0:39:18.780,0:39:19.460
In Italy.

0:39:19.460,0:39:19.600
In Italy,
yes,

0:39:19.600,0:39:19.920
yes.

0:39:19.920,0:39:21.160
There's a strong group in Italy.

0:39:21.180,0:39:21.680
Exactly.

0:39:22.320,0:39:24.360
Also centered around adepts.

0:39:24.480,0:39:26.640
So maybe it will slowly move further east and

0:39:26.640,0:39:27.660
It will also encompass us here,

0:39:27.760,0:39:29.320
increasingly.

0:39:29.900,0:39:30.540
So,

0:39:30.540,0:39:33.580
let's finally return to teaching.

0:39:33.620,0:39:36.740
In the medical communication program, you teach future

0:39:36.740,0:39:37.480
physicians, right,

0:39:37.760,0:39:40.280
because you have courses focused on

0:39:40.280,0:39:42.020
patient communication. Do you,

0:39:42.360,0:39:45.040
I don't know, manage to consider elements of

0:39:45.100,0:39:45.800
narrative

0:39:45.840,0:39:48.160
medicine in this curriculum?

0:39:48.960,0:39:50.840
Is there even room

0:39:50.880,0:39:54.420
to incorporate such elements of narrative?

0:39:54.750,0:39:56.450
Developing communication skills.

0:39:56.490,0:39:56.870
It seems like

0:39:56.870,0:39:58.530
it could be done,

0:39:58.670,0:39:59.370
right?
I think

0:39:59.370,0:40:01.750
that when teaching communication , we

0:40:01.750,0:40:04.170
inevitably touch upon narrative medicine,

0:40:04.310,0:40:08.130
because these are interconnected topics, and some of these

0:40:08.130,0:40:09.190
issues overlap.

0:40:09.810,0:40:13.110
Within the program, we teach communication skills—

0:40:13.130,0:40:16.390
what I'd call

0:40:16.390,0:40:17.670
evidence-based medicine—

0:40:17.830,0:40:19.030
because we rely heavily on

0:40:19.110,0:40:21.010
how

0:40:21.050,0:40:21.950
research shows

0:40:21.970,0:40:22.850
it's beneficial.

0:40:23.230,0:40:24.570
Research clearly shows

0:40:24.630,0:40:26.850
that good communication skills are beneficial in

0:40:26.850,0:40:27.330
practice.

0:40:27.330,0:40:29.710
This applies not only to communication skills with

0:40:29.710,0:40:30.250
patients,

0:40:30.250,0:40:31.810
but also between colleagues.

0:40:32.510,0:40:33.690
Medicine is specializing,

0:40:33.730,0:40:34.310
expanding,

0:40:34.310,0:40:37.270
more and more consultations are being requested,

0:40:37.350,0:40:38.710
more and more consultations are being held.

0:40:50.030,0:40:53.850
In the emergency department, sometimes several specialist consultations

0:40:53.850,0:40:54.430
are held.

0:40:55.810,0:41:00.330
So we teach these strictly communication skills,

0:41:00.330,0:41:03.030
but good communication requires some

0:41:03.030,0:41:04.890
consideration of the other.

0:41:04.970,0:41:05.610
Yes,

0:41:05.610,0:41:07.690
of the participant in this communication,

0:41:07.730,0:41:08.770
at least one.

0:41:08.770,0:41:10.130
And of

0:41:10.210,0:41:10.710
how I

0:41:10.750,0:41:13.670
present myself , in what light, when sending a given

0:41:13.670,0:41:14.150
message,

0:41:14.150,0:41:16.610
so I think they are closely interconnected.

0:41:17.160,0:41:20.140
If we want to develop the methodology of

0:41:20.140,0:41:20.800
narrative medicine,

0:41:20.800,0:41:23.480
communication is an excellent foundation, and we have this foundation,

0:41:23.660,0:41:26.640
because there is a communication program at the

0:41:26.640,0:41:28.140
Medical University of Warsaw.

0:41:28.560,0:41:32.420
Communication is also studied very intensively at

0:41:32.420,0:41:33.540
the Medical College of the Jagiellonian University,

0:41:33.640,0:41:37.480
as part of the Department of Didactics and Medical Education.

0:41:37.620,0:41:40.680
And when it comes to specifically teaching

0:41:40.680,0:41:42.300
narrative medicine at the University,

0:41:42.920,0:41:46.660
there were elective courses at the Jagiellonian University,

0:41:46.660,0:41:49.020
I think last academic year.

0:41:49.800,0:41:52.240
Registration was open, and those classes have already started.

0:41:52.320,0:41:55.260
Two years in a row, I offered this

0:41:55.260,0:41:58.500
option to medical students at

0:41:58.500,0:42:01.500
the Medical University of Warsaw, and each

0:42:01.500,0:42:03.080
time, two people signed up.

0:42:03.360,0:42:05.500
So, interest isn't zero,

0:42:07.000,0:42:07.520
but it's low.

0:42:07.780,0:42:10.300
But it's also another example

0:42:10.340,0:42:13.160
of Krakow having a different kind of ground.

0:42:13.500,0:42:14.000
Maybe.

0:42:14.100,0:42:14.560
Maybe,

0:42:14.560,0:42:15.640
but I also think

0:42:15.660,0:42:18.510
that practical aspects also come into play,

0:42:18.510,0:42:20.010
because it also depends on

0:42:20.030,0:42:22.110
the percentage of e-learning courses

0:42:22.170,0:42:23.410
versus in-person courses.

0:42:23.430,0:42:25.110
Various factors come into play.

0:42:25.130,0:42:26.590
However, I'm not devastated.

0:42:26.630,0:42:27.290
I'm very happy

0:42:27.370,0:42:28.590
that these two people signed up.

0:42:28.590,0:42:30.590
I think
we'll meet again

0:42:30.590,0:42:31.210
somewhere down the road.

0:42:31.470,0:42:31.990
I don't know,

0:42:31.990,0:42:32.410
nothing just yet.

0:42:32.410,0:42:33.530
These weren't random people.

0:42:33.830,0:42:35.050
Yes,
and for me, it's also an exercise,

0:42:35.050,0:42:37.250
because I have to construct a goal or reflect

0:42:37.250,0:42:37.730
on

0:42:37.730,0:42:38.750
what I want to teach,

0:42:38.790,0:42:40.050
why I want to teach it,

0:42:40.050,0:42:40.550
not just,

0:42:40.550,0:42:40.970
oh,

0:42:40.970,0:42:42.250
here's narrative medicine,

0:42:42.310,0:42:42.810
get this.

0:42:43.190,0:42:44.590
Why am I offering this to students?

0:42:44.590,0:42:45.370
Why as a doctor?

0:42:45.520,0:42:46.600
I think
it could be valuable.

0:42:47.080,0:42:49.880
The name itself is still on my mind,

0:42:49.880,0:42:50.380
right?

0:42:50.600,0:42:51.560
Narrative medicine.

0:42:51.560,0:42:52.910
So if we give,

0:42:52.910,0:42:53.410
well,

0:42:53.410,0:42:55.750
a subject with that name to medical students,

0:42:55.910,0:42:58.610
Well, they might not know

0:42:58.610,0:42:59.610
what to expect,

0:42:59.610,0:43:00.110
right?

0:43:00.290,0:43:02.210
A separate subject with that name,

0:43:02.230,0:43:02.910
in itself.

0:43:03.070,0:43:05.490
Maybe we're not ready for it yet,

0:43:05.490,0:43:05.970
as,
I don't know,

0:43:05.970,0:43:06.730
a community,

0:43:06.790,0:43:10.410
but maybe we could connect these elements,

0:43:10.410,0:43:13.030
right?
With developing communication skills,

0:43:13.190,0:43:13.510
right?

0:43:13.510,0:43:16.310
And incorporate elements of narrative medicine as such,

0:43:16.370,0:43:16.810
yes,

0:43:16.810,0:43:18.170
as supporting tools,

0:43:18.210,0:43:19.570
because I think the feeling

0:43:19.570,0:43:21.690
of communicating well is important.

0:43:21.710,0:43:23.090
It's almost like we already have it.

0:43:23.230,0:43:25.630
So, if there's a readiness for communication education,

0:43:25.630,0:43:27.910
and in this way, we could even

0:43:27.910,0:43:29.730
broaden the horizon and show

0:43:29.730,0:43:30.950
that there are spaces,

0:43:30.950,0:43:32.410
like narrative medicine,

0:43:32.430,0:43:35.210
that elegantly support us in communication.

0:43:36.070,0:43:38.410
This expression has a narrative element to it,

0:43:39.230,0:43:41.250
which is treated by many people,

0:43:41.410,0:43:42.930
confused with fiction,

0:43:43.030,0:43:43.370
right?

0:43:43.370,0:43:44.370
That it's actually medicine,

0:43:44.450,0:43:46.070
some kind of invented medicine.

0:43:46.130,0:43:47.230
What is that,

0:43:47.270,0:43:47.690
right?

0:43:47.690,0:43:48.330
That was interesting.

0:43:48.570,0:43:49.630
Oh,
exactly.

0:43:50.430,0:43:51.790
I hadn't even thought about

0:43:51.850,0:43:53.390
that there actually was such a connection,

0:43:53.390,0:43:54.550
right?
That he associated narrative with fiction.

0:43:54.550,0:43:56.530
Because we associate narrative with literary fiction,

0:43:56.550,0:43:56.910
right?

0:43:56.910,0:43:57.310
So,

0:43:57.310,0:43:57.730
what's that?

0:43:57.730,0:43:59.810
I don't have time to listen to some delusions,

0:43:59.810,0:44:00.170
right?

0:44:00.170,0:44:01.130
A patient and so on.

0:44:01.150,0:44:02.170
He'll be talking

0:44:02.170,0:44:03.230
nonsense ,

0:44:03.270,0:44:04.470
and I have to sift through

0:44:04.470,0:44:05.230
what's true

0:44:05.230,0:44:05.730
and what's not.

0:44:05.790,0:44:08.170
I've encountered those kinds of voices somewhere,

0:44:08.190,0:44:08.560
haven't I?

0:44:08.560,0:44:10.700
Critical ones,

0:44:10.700,0:44:12.480
sort of resisting.

0:44:12.540,0:44:13.400
So I don't know,

0:44:13.400,0:44:14.620
maybe there's something to the name itself.

0:44:15.220,0:44:16.060
You see,

0:44:16.060,0:44:17.220
I've been involved in this so long

0:44:17.280,0:44:19.840
that it seems to have stopped resonating with me.

0:44:19.920,0:44:21.880
So I no longer think about the fact

0:44:21.920,0:44:24.220
that narrative actually stands very close to fiction

0:44:24.820,0:44:27.500
And it's about a certain context of

0:44:27.620,0:44:28.920
how we speak,

0:44:29.040,0:44:30.100
why we speak that way.

0:44:30.180,0:44:31.060
A narrative.

0:44:31.060,0:44:33.260
Each of us has some kind of narrative.

0:44:33.260,0:44:34.460
We have a narrative of our own life.

0:44:34.600,0:44:35.560
Although I've read

0:44:35.560,0:44:37.720
that not everyone has an internal narrator.

0:44:37.770,0:44:38.570
That surprised me.

0:44:39.590,0:44:40.030
I've read

0:44:40.030,0:44:41.810
that not everyone has an internal narrator.

0:44:41.810,0:44:42.310
I do.

0:44:42.910,0:44:43.750
But I think

0:44:43.850,0:44:44.870
it's fair to say

0:44:44.930,0:44:47.090
that most people have this inner narrator, and

0:44:47.090,0:44:48.510
that's how we go through life,

0:44:48.550,0:44:53.050
maintaining our own internal narrative and placing

0:44:53.050,0:44:56.350
events in a chronological order or

0:44:56.350,0:44:57.390
in terms of importance.

0:44:57.810,0:44:58.870
Returning to certain events,

0:44:58.890,0:45:00.010
restoring them.

0:45:00.050,0:45:02.870
In some way, we're embedded in this universe,

0:45:02.870,0:45:03.370
and it seems

0:45:03.390,0:45:04.710
to be a narrative approach.

0:45:05.120,0:45:08.180
I recommend considering your own narrative.

0:45:08.260,0:45:10.100
If you're a doctor,

0:45:10.100,0:45:12.500
I recommend considering your patient's narrative.

0:45:12.500,0:45:14.620
It can be truly interesting.

0:45:15.820,0:45:17.520
It can also contribute to our lives.

0:45:18.020,0:45:18.780
I think

0:45:18.820,0:45:19.880
meeting someone

0:45:19.880,0:45:21.420
who comes to us,

0:45:21.460,0:45:24.800
sharing a burning issue,

0:45:24.800,0:45:25.980
is also a privilege.

0:45:26.330,0:45:27.990
To hear something like that from someone.

0:45:28.030,0:45:29.130
It's a close connection;

0:45:29.150,0:45:31.850
we're often with these people in crisis

0:45:31.850,0:45:32.550
situations,

0:45:32.590,0:45:35.070
often at the most important moments in their lives,

0:45:35.110,0:45:36.590
depending on their specialization,

0:45:36.590,0:45:36.910
I think.

0:45:36.910,0:45:38.710
But many people are—

0:45:38.770,0:45:40.570
for example, an emergency medicine specialist,

0:45:40.590,0:45:41.810
when they save someone after an accident,

0:45:41.810,0:45:44.490
it can be the most burdensome

0:45:44.490,0:45:45.710
event of their entire life.

0:45:46.110,0:45:48.510
And it's a psychological burden

0:45:48.570,0:45:50.470
that we often don't recognize.

0:45:51.360,0:45:52.800
I'm learning to avoid generalizations,

0:45:52.820,0:45:54.040
but it's hard.

0:45:54.240,0:45:56.780
I also gained a sense from my studies,

0:45:56.780,0:45:57.680
That we pretend

0:45:57.680,0:45:58.820
it doesn't burden us,

0:45:58.820,0:46:01.840
that we're so resilient, and we're also

0:46:01.840,0:46:02.580
taught

0:46:02.600,0:46:06.100
to be resilient or we can go find

0:46:06.100,0:46:06.900
another profession,

0:46:06.920,0:46:08.340
to that extent.

0:46:08.520,0:46:09.800
Maybe it's changing,

0:46:09.820,0:46:10.320
maybe,

0:46:10.400,0:46:10.900
I don't know.

0:46:10.960,0:46:11.820
I have the impression

0:46:11.820,0:46:13.240
that in my day it was like that.

0:46:13.400,0:46:13.900
I think

0:46:13.920,0:46:15.360
many people would agree with me.

0:46:16.160,0:46:18.160
This can be a bit difficult,

0:46:18.180,0:46:20.300
because these difficult emotions

0:46:20.300,0:46:21.160
don't disappear;

0:46:21.160,0:46:23.780
they tend to linger in most people,

0:46:23.900,0:46:25.080
maybe not everyone,

0:46:25.080,0:46:25.640
but I think

0:46:25.700,0:46:26.940
in many,

0:46:27.000,0:46:27.760
certainly in me.

0:46:28.540,0:46:29.900
And that's one thing,

0:46:30.160,0:46:30.720
and two,

0:46:30.740,0:46:31.440
too,

0:46:32.660,0:46:33.800
and two,

0:46:33.800,0:46:34.500
well, it's that

0:46:34.580,0:46:37.600
you can learn to tell the story of your life

0:46:37.600,0:46:39.420
as a doctor in a different way,

0:46:39.440,0:46:43.000
because you can also begin to see these difficult moments

0:46:43.000,0:46:45.420
as a privilege of being with someone through

0:46:45.420,0:46:46.340
moments in life

0:46:46.440,0:46:47.840
that are difficult,

0:46:47.840,0:46:48.240
important,

0:46:48.240,0:46:49.980
that somehow change their attitude,

0:46:50.000,0:46:51.820
their perspective on the world.

0:46:51.960,0:46:56.380
And often, being that companion is very

0:46:56.380,0:46:57.800
significant for that person.

0:46:57.900,0:46:58.660
I think we,

0:46:58.800,0:47:00.220
as the years go by,

0:47:00.220,0:47:01.480
when you practice this profession,

0:47:01.500,0:47:02.580
you see it less and less.

0:47:02.580,0:47:03.420
I have the impression

0:47:03.520,0:47:05.980
that it's becoming a daily occurrence,

0:47:05.980,0:47:07.500
that this is my job,

0:47:07.500,0:47:08.000
right?

0:47:08.180,0:47:10.100
An accountant fills out Excel spreadsheets,

0:47:10.100,0:47:11.000
and I have a job

0:47:11.040,0:47:11.660
where I'm a companion.

0:47:12.260,0:47:12.820
I'm not saying

0:47:12.840,0:47:13.720
it has to be a duty,

0:47:13.720,0:47:15.180
but it can simply be beneficial,

0:47:15.180,0:47:16.720
sometimes to look at it and think,

0:47:16.980,0:47:18.300
but damn, what I do

0:47:18.300,0:47:18.920
is important.

0:47:20.380,0:47:22.980
Maybe I'm important to my community,

0:47:23.560,0:47:24.420
to my hospital,

0:47:24.420,0:47:25.060
to these people.

0:47:25.180,0:47:27.580
Maybe I've contributed something good to their lives.

0:47:27.860,0:47:28.360
Great,

0:47:28.380,0:47:30.080
so this kind of mindfulness, also for myself.

0:47:30.160,0:47:30.600
For myself.

0:47:30.600,0:47:31.460
Focused on myself.

0:47:31.740,0:47:32.400
And for things

0:47:32.400,0:47:34.700
that become obvious,

0:47:34.720,0:47:35.620
or maybe it would be better

0:47:35.620,0:47:36.500
if they didn't.

0:47:39.060,0:47:39.580
Wow,

0:47:39.680,0:47:40.520
beautiful.

0:47:42.060,0:47:42.900
And do you think

0:47:42.920,0:47:45.840
narrative medicine is a space

0:47:45.880,0:47:49.340
where humanities scholars can somehow find their feet,

0:47:49.340,0:47:51.440
give something of themselves,

0:47:51.460,0:47:52.360
to the world.

0:47:53.600,0:47:54.160
Well,

0:47:54.160,0:47:54.720
I think

0:47:54.840,0:47:56.720
the very fact

0:47:56.780,0:47:58.220
that this came into being

0:47:58.220,0:47:59.080
is thanks to the fact

0:47:59.140,0:48:01.020
that people are conducting research on literature,

0:48:01.060,0:48:01.680
culture,

0:48:01.680,0:48:02.260
art,

0:48:02.260,0:48:02.840
music—

0:48:02.880,0:48:04.500
it's thanks to you,

0:48:04.700,0:48:05.740
so to speak.

0:48:06.400,0:48:07.380
People say

0:48:07.400,0:48:09.440
the humanities are in crisis,

0:48:09.440,0:48:11.380
that they're unnecessary to society,

0:48:11.380,0:48:13.500
but with this project we also want to show

0:48:13.500,0:48:14.980
that this isn't the case at all. That

0:48:15.020,0:48:18.500
the humanities also address difficult topics and can

0:48:18.500,0:48:20.690
provide certain tools,

0:48:20.690,0:48:21.430
inspiration,

0:48:21.550,0:48:25.050
for representatives of more useful specialties

0:48:25.050,0:48:28.330
to work together.

0:48:28.390,0:48:30.210
I wouldn't want to be the voice of the community,

0:48:30.230,0:48:32.750
because I don't know what the mood is on this aspect in

0:48:32.750,0:48:33.530
my community,

0:48:33.550,0:48:35.530
but I can speak for myself and for

0:48:35.530,0:48:36.610
the group of doctors

0:48:36.610,0:48:39.050
I know and who are also close to me,

0:48:39.150,0:48:40.910
that there is a place for this.

0:48:40.930,0:48:42.550
There is a place for this in our practice.

0:48:43.390,0:48:44.910
I certainly see

0:48:44.930,0:48:49.390
that my life would have been less valuable

0:48:49.470,0:48:52.730
if I had never come to the Faculty of History and

0:48:52.730,0:48:55.050
the Institute of Ecynology and Cultural Anthropology.

0:48:56.190,0:48:56.590
I think

0:48:56.590,0:48:58.350
my practice would also have suffered

0:48:58.350,0:48:59.190
because my practice,

0:48:59.190,0:49:00.150
whether I like it

0:49:00.230,0:49:00.550
or not,

0:49:00.550,0:49:01.090
is rooted in the

0:49:01.150,0:49:02.070
person I am.

0:49:02.810,0:49:03.730
Medical practice,

0:49:03.750,0:49:04.690
my medical practice.

0:49:05.130,0:49:07.450
Maybe it's a bit specific,

0:49:07.490,0:49:09.290
because I specialize in psychiatry,

0:49:09.330,0:49:11.230
so in psychiatry, you can't escape

0:49:11.230,0:49:11.670
narrative,

0:49:11.670,0:49:12.270
no matter

0:49:12.350,0:49:12.910
how hard you try.

0:49:12.950,0:49:14.670
Perhaps in other fields, you can try.

0:49:15.340,0:49:18.060
So I definitely see it too.

0:49:19.420,0:49:19.820
People

0:49:19.820,0:49:22.320
who want to pursue humanities,

0:49:22.320,0:49:24.340
medical humanities, certainly have a place for them

0:49:24.340,0:49:25.640
in narrative medicine,

0:49:25.640,0:49:27.040
in narrative sessions,

0:49:27.040,0:49:29.380
or sessions conducted, for example, for patients,

0:49:29.380,0:49:30.500
where perhaps,

0:49:30.600,0:49:33.080
if a doctor doesn't have time

0:49:33.140,0:49:35.540
to grasp certain aspects of the narrative,

0:49:35.580,0:49:37.940
perhaps a literary scholar could do it

0:49:39.500,0:49:42.080
Are there such sessions for patients in Polish

0:49:42.080,0:49:42.580
hospitals?

0:49:42.580,0:49:43.860
I don't think there are any in Polish hospitals.

0:49:43.960,0:49:45.100
At least, I'm not aware of any.

0:49:45.620,0:49:46.120
I was surprised.

0:49:46.200,0:49:46.740
However, I know

0:49:46.820,0:49:48.380
they are abroad. Authors

0:49:48.780,0:49:52.360
who have dedicated their practice to narrative medicine

0:49:52.360,0:49:54.820
are organizing them in this book .

0:49:54.820,0:49:55.360
They write about

0:49:55.380,0:49:58.300
such narrative sessions being organized,

0:49:58.320,0:50:01.160
for example, they are very common and

0:50:01.160,0:50:03.800
especially appreciated in oncology wards,

0:50:03.800,0:50:05.560
where treatment is long-term,

0:50:05.620,0:50:07.400
involves life-threatening situations and

0:50:08.400,0:50:09.860
there is a risk of death.

0:50:11.280,0:50:12.560
And there, it has its place.

0:50:12.620,0:50:13.020
I think

0:50:13.020,0:50:15.800
it can be an extremely important

0:50:15.800,0:50:16.660
experience for these patients.

0:50:17.060,0:50:18.340
Well,

0:50:18.360,0:50:20.500
maybe a doctor doesn't have to be involved in everything.

0:50:20.500,0:50:23.820
Perhaps this could be part of some kind of oversight,

0:50:23.840,0:50:26.140
just as

0:50:26.140,0:50:27.500
a nurse or

0:50:27.500,0:50:28.660
a laboratory diagnostician is part of a therapeutic team.

0:50:28.700,0:50:29.660
I think

0:50:29.760,0:50:31.000
there's a place for that.

0:50:31.620,0:50:32.140
I do.

0:50:32.750,0:50:33.570
It would be wonderful

0:50:33.570,0:50:35.430
if such a therapeutic team also had

0:50:35.430,0:50:36.830
a place for a humanist,

0:50:36.870,0:50:37.570
a philologist,

0:50:37.570,0:50:38.730
who is everything,

0:50:38.950,0:50:39.830
a philosopher,

0:50:39.830,0:50:43.010
yes.
But isn't it somehow fundamental that

0:50:43.050,0:50:46.590
ethics are inherently linked to medicine

0:50:46.590,0:50:47.090
?

0:50:47.110,0:50:49.070
And you can't deny that,

0:50:49.070,0:50:49.810
what ethics are.

0:50:50.830,0:50:52.430
The humanities in their purest form.

0:50:52.570,0:50:53.570
So people

0:50:53.590,0:50:54.070
who say

0:50:54.070,0:50:55.470
it's unnecessary...

0:50:57.720,0:50:58.420
I don't know.

0:50:58.500,0:50:59.820
Exactly,
because we think of medicine

0:50:59.840,0:51:02.480
as being more on the side of the exact sciences,

0:51:02.480,0:51:05.160
but then again, there's probably no other field that

0:51:05.160,0:51:06.240
touches people so deeply

0:51:06.240,0:51:08.060
,
and doesn't take as much interest in them as,

0:51:08.180,0:51:09.500
well, medicine.

0:51:09.560,0:51:12.560
So, in a sense, it's immersed in

0:51:12.560,0:51:13.160
the humanities.

0:51:13.420,0:51:14.360
I also wonder

0:51:14.400,0:51:16.300
how much of this is an expression of certain frustrations and

0:51:16.300,0:51:16.800
needs.

0:51:17.790,0:51:19.250
People practicing medicine—

0:51:19.250,0:51:21.730
this is also a hypothetical,

0:51:21.730,0:51:24.870
perhaps psychoanalytical, consideration,

0:51:24.890,0:51:25.790
but perhaps it's somehow important

0:51:25.870,0:51:30.450
to understand how these needs of people practicing medicine

0:51:30.450,0:51:33.070
have been frustrated time and time again,

0:51:33.070,0:51:33.910
for many years,

0:51:33.990,0:51:37.950
that we've become so entrenched in this approach,

0:51:37.950,0:51:39.430
that we don't need the humanities

0:51:39.490,0:51:41.730
because we don't even want to think about it anymore.

0:51:42.090,0:51:44.310
Perhaps if we loosen it up a bit,

0:51:44.310,0:51:46.090
there might be more space.

0:51:46.590,0:51:47.090
I think

0:51:47.110,0:51:50.150
this view can absolutely be justified in a very

0:51:50.150,0:51:50.990
fundamental way:

0:51:51.150,0:51:53.090
that there is a place for it, and I would like

0:51:53.090,0:51:55.230
there to be, and I know at least a few

0:51:55.230,0:51:55.610
people

0:51:55.610,0:51:56.570
who agree with me,

0:51:56.610,0:51:57.150
that's how we say it.

0:51:57.410,0:51:58.270
I agree too,

0:51:58.270,0:51:59.650
I'm joining the ranks of those people.

0:52:00.640,0:52:01.780
Thank you, Adrianna.

0:52:01.880,0:52:02.780
Thank you very much.

0:52:02.920,0:52:03.920
For the conversation,

0:52:03.940,0:52:04.460
for the meeting.

0:52:04.460,0:52:06.400
A very pleasant meeting.

0:52:06.460,0:52:08.240
We could continue

0:52:08.920,0:52:09.420
like this.

0:52:09.540,0:52:11.360
And we will probably continue somehow.

0:52:11.360,0:52:12.840
And we will continue somehow.

0:52:12.840,0:52:13.860
There is hope,

0:52:13.860,0:52:15.420
there are people in this country

0:52:15.580,0:52:19.240
who believe in narrative medicine and believe in

0:52:19.240,0:52:20.360
some kind of change,

0:52:20.360,0:52:21.180
so I think

0:52:21.220,0:52:22.580
we're on the right track.

0:52:22.620,0:52:25.660
Thank you for this appreciation of the humanities,

0:52:25.700,0:52:28.160
for recognizing their components in various spheres

0:52:28.160,0:52:28.860
of our lives,

0:52:28.940,0:52:30.680
for the fact that they too have something to say.

0:52:30.860,0:52:32.360
But to put it in perspective,

0:52:32.440,0:52:34.060
to impress everyone,

0:52:34.080,0:52:35.180
That this is important,

0:52:35.200,0:52:36.180
that we are here

0:52:36.220,0:52:38.190
to make a difference.

0:52:38.350,0:52:41.970
So thank you again, and see you soon.

0:52:41.970,0:52:42.570
See you soon.

0:52:47.130,0:52:51.010
The "Engaged Polish Studies" podcast series was produced

0:52:51.010,0:52:53.230
as part of the "Polish Studies and the Challenges

0:52:53.230,0:52:54.310
of the Modern World" project.

0:52:55.030,0:52:57.630
Co-financed from the state budget under

0:52:57.630,0:53:00.710
the "Science for Society 2"

0:53:00.710,0:53:01.770
program of the Minister of Education and Science.

0:53:01.850,0:53:03.810
The project number is in the description.

0:53:04.650,0:53:07.690
We invite you to listen to subsequent episodes

0:53:07.690,0:53:09.750
available on Sprecare,

0:53:09.930,0:53:13.410
Spotify, and YouTube, as well as in the online Polish Studies Newsletter.

0:53:14.450,0:53:16.250
See you soon!