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I think

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that meeting someone

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who comes to us,

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sharing a burning issue,

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is also a privilege to hear something like that from

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someone.
It's a close connection;

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we're with them often in crisis

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situations,

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often at the most important moments in their lives.

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In some way, we're embedded in this universe,

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and it seems

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to be a narrative process.

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I recommend reflecting on your own narrative.

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If you're a doctor,

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I recommend reflecting on your patients' narratives.

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It can be truly interesting, and

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it can also contribute to your own lives.

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You can also begin to see these difficult moments as

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a privilege of accompanying someone through

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moments in life

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that are difficult,

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important, 

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and somehow change their attitude and

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perspective on the world.

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We invite you to listen to episodes of the new

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podcast series on the Polish Studies Newsletter's Meetings, titled 

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"Engaged Polish Studies".

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Polish studies aren't a helpless observation

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of the world.

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They provide tools

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to navigate it,

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help understand it, and

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prevent exclusion and loneliness.

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This is the Polish studies

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we want to showcase through our project.

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Engaged Polish Studies.

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Good morning Adrianna.

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Good morning Marta.

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Thank you

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for accepting the invitation to this conversation 

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about narrative medicine.

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Perhaps

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I could first introduce you to our listeners.

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Dear Sirs and Madams,

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Ms. Adrianna Beczek,

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a doctor

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who graduated from medical school at

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the Jagiellonian University Medical College,

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is also a humanities scholar.

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After completing her bachelor's degree in ethnology and

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cultural anthropology and her master's degree

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within the interfaculty individual

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humanities studies program at the Jagiellonian University,

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it's a difficult,

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long, and complicated title,

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so Adrianna, you're both a doctor  

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and a humanities scholar.

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Since November 2021, you've also been a

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teaching assistant at the Medical Communication Center at

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the Medical University of Warsaw and are currently

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specializing

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in psychiatry.

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It was at the Medical University of Warsaw that we had the opportunity to meet

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for the first time and get to know each other during a

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conference on communication in medicine.

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But,

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importantly,

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in 2019, you participated in the

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narrative medicine workshops led by Rita Sharon.

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Milan,

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so it's closer,

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so you didn't have to go

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all the way across the ocean.

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All the way to New York.

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Exactly.

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Just before COVID, we had

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the pleasure of visiting Milan,

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just before the pandemic broke out.

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We were in Milan,

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we met with Rita Sharon.

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A wonderful opportunity,

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so we'll talk about that later.

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Yes, indeed.

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And in general, you've been involved in working

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on the methodology of narrative medicine for many years.

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You consulted, among other things, on the Polish edition of

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a rather important book

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by Rita Charon and her team,

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a textbook, in fact,

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Narrative Medicine,

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Theory and Practice.

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The book was published in Polish in 2020,

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translated by Maria Świątkowska, and

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was created and edited by Hubert Systek and

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Mateusz Potoniec.

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You were part of this work.

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The chapter on cultural anthropology,

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concerning cultural anthropology.

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Well,
they dreamed of what

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you know.

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Adrianna,

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perhaps you could add something to this list of

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certain biographical facts?

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Thank you very much for inviting me to the conversation.

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I hope

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that somehow my perspective, which is a bit too close to

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the clinic,

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because I won't say

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that it's some great,

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deep clinical practice of narrative medicine,

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can add something to the understanding of this topic and to

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the discussion about it, which,

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I have a feeling, is currently

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taking place

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in Poland.

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Could you tell me a bit more about

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how you combined medical studies with

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humanities studies?

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Because I think

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it's incredibly difficult.

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Medical studies seem so

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engaging,

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and here,

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it's like

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ethnography,

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anthropology, and then there's this whole thing, all in parallel.

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How did you manage to do all this, and

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where did the idea

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to intertwine these two paths come from?

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How did I do it?

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It was difficult,

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I won't say

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it was easy, and I also remember that

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period as difficult,

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but only possible thanks to the goodwill and

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commitment of many of my lecturers and assistants.

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Maybe this is a good platform

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to thank everyone for

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remembering this and really appreciating

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that it was made possible for me through individual

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study plans and the possibility of taking credits at different

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times,

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so many people

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who somehow understood my mission.

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They were involved and made it possible for me as

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part of my studies at the Jagiellonian University.

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I don't want to create any

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false legend here,

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because I studied longer because

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I studied these two fields,

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combining them during my leave periods.

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In one field,

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in the other, I followed individual plans.

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That's how I managed. I completed

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the last year of my studies,

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my master's degree as part of the

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inter-faculty humanities program, while

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working as a doctor at a detention center in

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Krakow.

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So I worked at the detention center with hours

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that allowed me to study a few blocks

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away,
finish my master's degree,

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and then defend my thesis.

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Where did the idea for this combination come from?

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Unfortunately, there's no other way

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to describe it than disillusionment with medicine and the

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way it works.

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I don't come from a medical family.

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My first contact with the medical field wasn't

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until my third year of studies,

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when clinical classes begin.

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The first two years,

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three years in the past,

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two years now, I think,

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were theoretical classes,

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more like university.

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No patient contact.

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No patient contact,

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yes.
First, there are all four basic sciences,

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then you continue with

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seminars and lectures,

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and from the third year on, clinical sciences began,

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meaning teaching medicine.

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Where there's an assistant,

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you have classes in smaller groups with the assistant,

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you follow the assistant around,

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observe their work, and

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they explain

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why they do things

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this way

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. These are very practical classes.

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And when these classes started,

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I was overwhelmed by

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the way things were.

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I didn't really like it and even

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considered
giving up medicine altogether and switching

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to another field.

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Then I started studying cultural anthropology.

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But after a year of student leave, I returned and

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completed my medical degree.

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This was also thanks to the fact

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that I learned

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about approaches like narrative medicine,

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that there were people

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trying to combine them,

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who tried to incorporate

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insights from the humanities and social sciences into their practice, and

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somehow managed to do so.

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And that seemed inspiring to me, and I thought

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that maybe it doesn't necessarily have to look  

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like the way

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I observe it during classes.

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So I finished it and I'm working on it, somehow,

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it's working.

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But these,

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how should I put it,

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these insights from the humanities seem

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I feel

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like they're adding to my practice, and I'm not sure

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if, personally,

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it would even be possible for me to continue practicing

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medicine

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if it weren't for these humanities-based insights.

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So, it wasn't easy,

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but you had the impression when combining

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these different fields of study

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that it somehow made things easier,

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that you saw them

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complementing the view of humanity,

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right?
This medical perspective,

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this ethnographic,

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anthropological perspective

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that humanities studies offer.

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Were there moments

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when you felt,

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yes,
this somehow complements me and helps me

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pursue both paths?

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Yes.

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Definitely.

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However, I know

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that this is my individual perspective,

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stemming from some predispositions,

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perhaps innate,

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or perhaps acquired later in life,

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before I started studying medicine.

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I know
that not everyone needs this to

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practice well.

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But for me, it does.

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I think

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an important aspect

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that these humanities studies have given me

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is understanding

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why patients are sometimes dissatisfied with their care,

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why doctors are sometimes confused, thinking,

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"Well,

256
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I cured them,

257
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right?"
So why does the guy still leave dissatisfied?

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Thanks to the topics discussed,

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for example, during cultural anthropology classes,

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understanding social processes,

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or the cultural perception of medicine,

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perhaps it was easier for me to understand.

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This made me feel less stressed;

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I simply expected it

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to be this way more.

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That people are complex.

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Specifically,

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that it's not quite like that,

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that I have the impression

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we'll get to that in the course of our conversations,

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that this mechanistic concept of the human being,

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where we divide them into the body and the rest,

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isn't entirely accurate.

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Maybe that's why

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the body is sometimes cured,

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but the person is still unhappy and dissatisfied.

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Maybe it's not so unexpected.

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Right?

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Exactly.

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Thank you.

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So, let's move on to

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narrative medicine,

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to its methodological foundations.

284
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Could you explain to us what

285
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you consider the most important assumptions of narrative medicine?

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What are its foundations?

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What does it involve in general?

288
00:09:28,980 --> 00:09:32,140
And here, I'd also be interested in your perspective

289
00:09:32,140 --> 00:09:35,360
on the relationship between medicine and narrative,

290
00:09:35,380 --> 00:09:36,380
wouldn't you?
In this idea

291
00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:37,900
of ​​narrative medicine.

292
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,440
How do these two powerful categories,

293
00:09:40,460 --> 00:09:41,900
somewhat from different worlds, relate to each other?

294
00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,060
That is, how does medicine draw from narrative and

295
00:09:45,060 --> 00:09:48,660
the humanities, and what do these humanities offer medicine?

296
00:09:49,150 --> 00:09:51,230
If we're talking 

297
00:09:51,230 --> 00:09:51,690
about narrative medicine itself,

298
00:09:51,690 --> 00:09:53,570
it's impossible not to mention

299
00:09:53,630 --> 00:09:56,650
that it's a term coined by Rita Sharon,

300
00:09:56,850 --> 00:09:59,270
a professor at Columbia University  

301
00:09:59,270 --> 00:09:59,630
in New York,

302
00:09:59,630 --> 00:10:02,210
a specialist in family medicine

303
00:10:02,210 --> 00:10:04,530
who also experienced a similar crisis and

304
00:10:04,530 --> 00:10:06,870
disillusionment with medicine at a certain point in her

305
00:10:06,870 --> 00:10:07,370
life.

306
00:10:07,700 --> 00:10:10,120
She began studying literary studies and

307
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:11,920
noticed points of contact—

308
00:10:11,980 --> 00:10:12,940
where

309
00:10:12,980 --> 00:10:15,120
medicine lacked in certain respects,

310
00:10:15,140 --> 00:10:16,940
perhaps

311
00:10:16,940 --> 00:10:18,000
literary studies could fill that gap.

312
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:19,140
This is also evident in her practice.

313
00:10:19,140 --> 00:10:20,560
It's interesting to me, for example,

314
00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:23,920
that she

315
00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,140
approaches the topic from a humanities perspective in such a literary scholarly way.

316
00:10:26,140 --> 00:10:27,840
I see a slight difference in her approach,

317
00:10:27,860 --> 00:10:30,140
because cultural anthropology is already somewhat different

318
00:10:30,140 --> 00:10:31,340
from literary studies,

319
00:10:31,340 --> 00:10:33,200
even though it's a group of disciplines.

320
00:10:33,550 --> 00:10:34,810
The same disciplines,

321
00:10:34,810 --> 00:10:35,650
similar,

322
00:10:35,650 --> 00:10:36,430
perhaps not the same,

323
00:10:36,430 --> 00:10:37,270
Maybe it's to some extent,

324
00:10:37,330 --> 00:10:37,830
the same,

325
00:10:37,830 --> 00:10:39,010
yet similar.

326
00:10:39,310 --> 00:10:42,050
And yet, her humanities context is a bit

327
00:10:42,050 --> 00:10:44,870
different, and from the workshops she

328
00:10:44,870 --> 00:10:46,090
held in Milan,

329
00:10:46,170 --> 00:10:47,870
I got the impression

330
00:10:47,870 --> 00:10:48,810
that she understands this, too,

331
00:10:48,810 --> 00:10:49,170
that you see

332
00:10:49,170 --> 00:10:52,090
that people approaching the humanities from different angles

333
00:10:52,090 --> 00:10:53,630
also bring their own perspectives.

334
00:10:53,630 --> 00:10:55,270
That's also the value of combining these different

335
00:10:55,270 --> 00:10:55,890
perspectives.

336
00:10:55,970 --> 00:10:56,630
I hope

337
00:10:56,650 --> 00:10:57,150
so.

338
00:10:57,450 --> 00:10:57,910
I think

339
00:10:57,910 --> 00:10:59,150
we see it that way too.

340
00:10:59,790 --> 00:11:02,710
She approached the topic this way and began

341
00:11:02,710 --> 00:11:05,510
to fill those gaps with literary studies,

342
00:11:05,510 --> 00:11:07,290
methods drawn from her

343
00:11:07,290 --> 00:11:08,470
literary studies.

344
00:11:08,470 --> 00:11:11,690
And somehow it began to take root as

345
00:11:11,690 --> 00:11:12,990
narrative medicine.

346
00:11:13,050 --> 00:11:14,890
I also heard an anecdote

347
00:11:14,890 --> 00:11:17,840
that she came up with the term

348
00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,160
because she had to include something in a grant application,

349
00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,600
so she quickly came up with it, and it

350
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:23,200
stuck.

351
00:11:23,980 --> 00:11:27,300
And this was happening at the end of the previous

352
00:11:27,300 --> 00:11:27,700
century,

353
00:11:27,700 --> 00:11:30,620
and at the beginning of the 21st century, the methodology began

354
00:11:30,620 --> 00:11:31,760
to become more established, and

355
00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,100
more researchers began working on it.

356
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:36,540
They started writing

357
00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:37,700
down these rough rules,

358
00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:38,620
speaking of narrative,

359
00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:41,160
writing, and

360
00:11:41,180 --> 00:11:42,380
understanding. This team, from what

361
00:11:42,460 --> 00:11:42,880
I understand,

362
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,220
also emphasizes that

363
00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,720
these rules aren't rigid and set

364
00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:47,300
in stone;

365
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,760
they're constantly subject to influences ,

366
00:11:51,699 --> 00:11:52,320
depending on

367
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,060
how the world changes .

368
00:11:54,260 --> 00:11:55,140
But they also observe

369
00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,080
how these rules shape their

370
00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,940
narrative practice, and this practice returns to these rules.

371
00:11:59,940 --> 00:12:02,820
So it's not some set of rigid commandments,

372
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,320
but rather a set of guidelines.

373
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:05,960
I have the impression

374
00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:06,960
that, because

375
00:12:07,020 --> 00:12:09,580
Rita Sharon comes from a literary studies background,

376
00:12:09,620 --> 00:12:12,760
the methodology of narrative medicine draws heavily from

377
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,650
literary studies, and the aspect

378
00:12:16,650 --> 00:12:19,650
that is perhaps most emphasized in this

379
00:12:19,650 --> 00:12:20,390
methodology

380
00:12:20,390 --> 00:12:22,030
is close reading.

381
00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:23,090
Careful reading,

382
00:12:23,110 --> 00:12:24,670
also related to attentive listening,

383
00:12:24,670 --> 00:12:27,310
is a practice from literary studies

384
00:12:27,310 --> 00:12:28,230
in which

385
00:12:28,250 --> 00:12:29,230
each word,

386
00:12:29,230 --> 00:12:34,260
each sentence, is given great importance,

387
00:12:34,300 --> 00:12:36,620
its context is discussed,

388
00:12:36,620 --> 00:12:40,500
its effect on the overall message

389
00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:42,900
is then translated into

390
00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:45,820
the practice of attentive listening with the patient in the office.

391
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,100
It's also worth mentioning

392
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,900
that narrative medicine is taught not only to practicing

393
00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:51,700
clinicians

394
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:52,880
but also to patients,

395
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,900
so it has its various facets,

396
00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:56,460
images, and

397
00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,200
various applications in practice.

398
00:12:58,910 --> 00:13:01,570
We could talk at length about this methodology.

399
00:13:01,570 --> 00:13:01,970
The book

400
00:13:01,970 --> 00:13:02,850
I have in front of me

401
00:13:02,850 --> 00:13:04,830
is a good few hundred pages long.

402
00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:06,370
I invite you to read it.

403
00:13:06,770 --> 00:13:10,710
However, this very brief introduction, and I think

404
00:13:10,710 --> 00:13:11,410
the
thing

405
00:13:11,410 --> 00:13:13,010
that most struck me,

406
00:13:13,010 --> 00:13:14,270
whether I've ever read

407
00:13:14,310 --> 00:13:16,570
or studied this field,

408
00:13:16,690 --> 00:13:18,510
was this important reading.

409
00:13:19,250 --> 00:13:22,230
However, when I think about narrative medicine,

410
00:13:22,230 --> 00:13:23,390
I also think that

411
00:13:23,410 --> 00:13:24,990
this isn't something

412
00:13:25,010 --> 00:13:26,970
Rita Sharon de facto invented.

413
00:13:26,970 --> 00:13:28,490
She somehow codified it,

414
00:13:28,510 --> 00:13:31,310
drew attention to it in academic discourse,

415
00:13:31,310 --> 00:13:32,010
in medicine.

416
00:13:32,030 --> 00:13:35,690
Medicine, however, began as

417
00:13:35,690 --> 00:13:37,090
a global phenomenon,

418
00:13:37,090 --> 00:13:38,310
as something holistic.

419
00:13:38,490 --> 00:13:42,250
And initially, it didn't treat the mind and body

420
00:13:42,250 --> 00:13:43,330
separately.

421
00:13:44,030 --> 00:13:46,830
And we moved away from this

422
00:13:46,830 --> 00:13:47,850
combined treatment of mind and body

423
00:13:47,850 --> 00:13:50,010
in favor of a mechanistic approach,

424
00:13:50,030 --> 00:13:52,850
because the industrial revolution gave us vast possibilities

425
00:13:52,850 --> 00:13:54,830
in terms of treating individual organs,

426
00:13:54,830 --> 00:13:56,490
of viewing everything under a microscope.

427
00:13:56,510 --> 00:13:57,430
And let's not say

428
00:13:57,450 --> 00:13:58,310
I'm criticizing this,

429
00:13:58,390 --> 00:13:59,710
it was very good  

430
00:13:59,750 --> 00:14:00,910
at the time.

431
00:14:01,050 --> 00:14:04,610
But we've been doing this for 100-150 years.

432
00:14:05,460 --> 00:14:06,820
Perhaps we're ready

433
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:08,980
to return to a more holistic view

434
00:14:08,980 --> 00:14:09,600
of the human being,

435
00:14:09,620 --> 00:14:10,900
because I feel

436
00:14:10,900 --> 00:14:12,920
that many of the problems in modern medicine

437
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:13,540
stem from

438
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:14,760
our disjoint approach.

439
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,160
This is my own personal theory,

440
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:17,120
a null hypothesis,

441
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:18,480
yes,
testable,

442
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,180
but I observe

443
00:14:20,260 --> 00:14:21,560
that because

444
00:14:21,620 --> 00:14:23,960
we start from a Cartesian assumption—

445
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,000
that the body is a machine,

446
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:26,920
and the spirit is somewhere out there,

447
00:14:26,940 --> 00:14:28,020
driving this machine,

448
00:14:28,060 --> 00:14:28,900
or not driving it,

449
00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:31,480
or driving its parts in different versions—

450
00:14:31,540 --> 00:14:35,320
this then leads to some of our problems,

451
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,220
namely the low patient satisfaction with treatment—

452
00:14:38,260 --> 00:14:39,400
I'm putting it roughly,

453
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:39,840
low,

454
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,600
lower than we'd like—perhaps

455
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:43,180
simply stems from the fact

456
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:44,480
that the patient

457
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,600
who comes to a doctor and seeks help

458
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,080
generally lacks medical training.

459
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:51,100
Exactly.

460
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,040
And they often want

461
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,060
to be seen as a whole person.

462
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:57,720
Sometimes they have trouble accepting

463
00:14:57,780 --> 00:15:00,980
that a doctor sees them as an organ or as

464
00:15:00,980 --> 00:15:01,620
something broken

465
00:15:01,660 --> 00:15:02,640
that needs to be fixed.

466
00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:05,000
I also don't want

467
00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,080
this to sound so critical,

468
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:07,620
like, wow,

469
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:08,360
bad doctors,

470
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,320
they just sit behind that desk and just

471
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,800
tighten that screw and that's it,

472
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:13,360
that's it,

473
00:15:13,460 --> 00:15:15,680
because very often it's not,

474
00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:17,200
and it stems from the context

475
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:18,780
in which we practice medicine.

476
00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:20,440
But I think I would agree

477
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,850
that narrative medicine is perhaps emerging as a

478
00:15:23,850 --> 00:15:25,490
voice of protest against

479
00:15:25,530 --> 00:15:27,590
where medicine has gone.

480
00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:30,070
Because it's as if this turn in this very

481
00:15:30,070 --> 00:15:30,750
technical,

482
00:15:30,750 --> 00:15:31,370
precise,

483
00:15:31,370 --> 00:15:34,330
biological direction, at a certain point, no longer

484
00:15:34,330 --> 00:15:36,150
brings any good.

485
00:15:36,450 --> 00:15:38,770
I've also heard such comments from people,

486
00:15:38,850 --> 00:15:40,170
experienced

487
00:15:40,270 --> 00:15:41,490
professors,
right,

488
00:15:41,490 --> 00:15:44,210
who are familiar with narrative medicine and say,

489
00:15:44,290 --> 00:15:45,350
"Well, that's nothing new,

490
00:15:45,370 --> 00:15:45,870
right?"

491
00:15:45,870 --> 00:15:46,490
Well, that's it,

492
00:15:46,530 --> 00:15:48,090
because it's nothing new

493
00:15:48,090 --> 00:15:51,030
when you look at the essence of things that way,

494
00:15:51,250 --> 00:15:51,570
right?

495
00:15:51,570 --> 00:15:55,750
But perhaps it needed to be given a name,

496
00:15:55,810 --> 00:15:57,790
a formal framework,

497
00:15:57,810 --> 00:15:58,310
right?

498
00:15:58,630 --> 00:16:00,890
For the world to know,

499
00:16:00,910 --> 00:16:02,610
for people to suddenly realize,

500
00:16:02,690 --> 00:16:03,530
okay,

501
00:16:03,530 --> 00:16:06,450
so we need to somehow return to this holistic

502
00:16:06,450 --> 00:16:07,130
approach.

503
00:16:07,910 --> 00:16:11,570
Try to combine this strictly medical approach with

504
00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:12,810
what was missing,

505
00:16:12,890 --> 00:16:15,390
precisely to see the human being in its entirety.

506
00:16:15,430 --> 00:16:17,450
So perhaps these formal accents were necessary here.

507
00:16:17,510 --> 00:16:18,050
Exactly.

508
00:16:18,150 --> 00:16:20,010
And perhaps just one comment:

509
00:16:20,010 --> 00:16:21,050
perhaps it's not

510
00:16:21,090 --> 00:16:22,950
that this mechanistic medicine brings us

511
00:16:22,950 --> 00:16:23,630
no benefits,

512
00:16:23,650 --> 00:16:25,310
but rather that it brings us fewer and fewer benefits,

513
00:16:25,330 --> 00:16:28,050
simply because of its natural development over

514
00:16:28,050 --> 00:16:28,690
time,

515
00:16:28,830 --> 00:16:29,510
through history.

516
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,040
And I have the impression

517
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:32,420
that there's more and more room

518
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,320
to supplement it with this return to

519
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:35,700
the roots,

520
00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:37,580
because sometimes,

521
00:16:37,580 --> 00:16:40,940
when we say this holism to medical students or

522
00:16:40,940 --> 00:16:41,840
medical practitioners,

523
00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:42,580
it causes a stir

524
00:16:42,620 --> 00:16:45,460
because it's associated with so-called alternative medicine over

525
00:16:45,460 --> 00:16:47,500
non-medical treatment.

526
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,000
The popularity of non-medical treatment may be related

527
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,540
to the neglect of

528
00:16:53,540 --> 00:16:54,120
evidence-based medicine.

529
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:55,920
It seems to be based on facts

530
00:16:55,980 --> 00:16:58,600
that good communication and good rapport with the patient

531
00:16:58,600 --> 00:16:59,220
are also beneficial

532
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,020
and contribute to good treatment outcomes.

533
00:17:03,100 --> 00:17:05,500
And the popularity of these non-medical practices

534
00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:06,500
stems from the fact

535
00:17:06,540 --> 00:17:08,480
that we perhaps focus too much on

536
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,819
targeting individual receptors, operating on them, and

537
00:17:11,819 --> 00:17:12,700
affecting organs,

538
00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:13,960
and less on

539
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,240
seeing the person in the context of their

540
00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:16,800
problem,

541
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:17,680
what they're dealing with,

542
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,020
and that this problem is also conditioned perhaps by their style.

543
00:17:20,020 --> 00:17:20,380
Life,

544
00:17:20,380 --> 00:17:21,780
or perhaps some relationships,

545
00:17:21,819 --> 00:17:24,140
that the response to treatment is also determined

546
00:17:24,140 --> 00:17:25,420
by a whole range of factors.

547
00:17:25,540 --> 00:17:27,599
There are also psychosomatic illnesses—a completely

548
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:28,400
different,

549
00:17:28,820 --> 00:17:32,040
completely separate group of illnesses.

550
00:17:32,260 --> 00:17:33,620
So let's reassure everyone.

551
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,200
Narrative medicine isn't some sort of isolated,

552
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:37,460
new medicine,

553
00:17:37,580 --> 00:17:39,340
right?
It's just an approach

554
00:17:39,340 --> 00:17:42,980
that allows us to supplement evidence-based medicine,

555
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:43,600
right?

556
00:17:43,780 --> 00:17:47,500
It's precisely this more human,

557
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:48,200
subjective element,

558
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:48,660
to

559
00:17:48,660 --> 00:17:50,900
see the person as a whole.

560
00:17:51,060 --> 00:17:51,820
Besides, I thought

561
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:53,240
it wasn't a coincidence

562
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,860
that Rita Sharon is a family doctor,

563
00:17:55,860 --> 00:17:58,840
right,
because that's also such a specific specialization,

564
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,300
this direct contact with many

565
00:18:01,300 --> 00:18:02,280
patients

566
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,000
where you basically follow one patient throughout

567
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:05,600
their life,

568
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:06,500
the entire family, right,

569
00:18:06,620 --> 00:18:08,720
right,
and you hear the stories,

570
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:09,220
right,

571
00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:11,860
that the person comes to you with.

572
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,440
I couldn't imagine

573
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:14,420
an orthopedic surgeon
suddenly deciding

574
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,880
they lacked the humanities in their interactions with patients.

575
00:18:18,510 --> 00:18:18,830
It's good

576
00:18:18,830 --> 00:18:19,590
that it happened.

577
00:18:20,050 --> 00:18:21,150
Indeed, I think

578
00:18:21,210 --> 00:18:23,410
the very nature of this specialization may provide less

579
00:18:23,410 --> 00:18:24,390
room for narrative,

580
00:18:24,410 --> 00:18:26,010
but an orthopedic surgeon, on the other hand,

581
00:18:26,010 --> 00:18:28,570
might be more suited to

582
00:18:28,570 --> 00:18:29,950
narrative medicine.

583
00:18:30,070 --> 00:18:30,610
My subjective experience,  

584
00:18:30,650 --> 00:18:33,030
I'll emphasize it again,

585
00:18:33,050 --> 00:18:33,790
is that

586
00:18:35,210 --> 00:18:37,210
during my postgraduate internship,

587
00:18:37,230 --> 00:18:40,270
when I had the orthopedic residency,

588
00:18:40,810 --> 00:18:44,230
I saw patients at the outpatient clinic with a specialist,

589
00:18:44,230 --> 00:18:48,400
and the orthopedic specialist at the National Health Fund

590
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:48,900
outpatient clinic

591
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:50,080
saw fifty patients

592
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,940
in five or six hours.

593
00:18:53,020 --> 00:18:56,540
I was very impressed by the mental resilience

594
00:18:56,540 --> 00:18:57,540
of this person,

595
00:18:57,540 --> 00:18:59,480
especially their knowledge,

596
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:00,780
because it's a problem to solve,

597
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:01,600
a problem to solve,

598
00:19:01,660 --> 00:19:02,920
and that's it, for five hours.

599
00:19:02,940 --> 00:19:05,180
But also by the mental resilience of this person,

600
00:19:05,340 --> 00:19:06,920
because after a day like that,

601
00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:09,560
as an extra person who,

602
00:19:09,580 --> 00:19:10,260
I don't know,

603
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:10,760
examines

604
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:11,240
something

605
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:12,580
or types something into the computer,

606
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,780
I felt like I'd been run over by a combine harvester.

607
00:19:14,780 --> 00:19:18,400
And these doctors had a day like that, a marathon of seeing patients at that clinic

608
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:19,080
once or twice a week.

609
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,120
So I have a feeling

610
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:24,480
that if I were an orthopedist,

611
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,480
I'd want to pursue narrative medicine so

612
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:27,500
I could have more time,

613
00:19:27,620 --> 00:19:30,360
simply to think about a patient's problem,

614
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:31,300
to sit down,

615
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,920
more time to type that concentration into

616
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:34,620
the computer,

617
00:19:34,620 --> 00:19:37,320
instead of just "patient" and "next,"

618
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:38,500
and "next," and "next,

619
00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:39,080
" and "next," and "next,

620
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:40,020
" and so on, all day long.

621
00:19:40,060 --> 00:19:43,100
A truly traumatic experience.

622
00:19:43,260 --> 00:19:45,360
How can you delve into fifty stories,

623
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:45,860
right?

624
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:46,540
Well,

625
00:19:46,540 --> 00:19:47,440
I guess you can't.

626
00:19:48,220 --> 00:19:49,320
I

627
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:54,060
guess there's a limit somewhere. And you can somehow do it with fifty broken bones,

628
00:19:54,220 --> 00:19:54,720
right?

629
00:19:54,780 --> 00:19:55,440
Well,

630
00:19:55,460 --> 00:19:58,100
because Szalan reached for literary studies

631
00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:01,400
to become a better doctor.

632
00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:02,380
I wonder

633
00:20:02,380 --> 00:20:05,360
if, besides literary studies ,

634
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:08,900
there's room in narrative medicine for other areas

635
00:20:08,900 --> 00:20:09,880
of the humanities?

636
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,460
Is there a place for language researchers,

637
00:20:14,460 --> 00:20:16,120
or, more precisely, culture researchers?

638
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:16,580
Because you say

639
00:20:16,580 --> 00:20:17,640
you feel

640
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,080
that your perspective as an anthropologist is slightly

641
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:22,500
different from the literary perspective,

642
00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:24,120
like Richard Sharon's.

643
00:20:24,180 --> 00:20:25,620
What would that difference

644
00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:26,120
be?

645
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,240
Even the textbook on narrative medicine has

646
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,460
chapters devoted to specific branches of medicine.

647
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,840
There is a section devoted to literary studies,

648
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,000
Philosophy, and also cultural anthropology,

649
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:38,500
a whole field.

650
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:39,340
I think

651
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:43,140
that this contribution of cultural anthropology to narrative medicine

652
00:20:43,140 --> 00:20:46,920
is primarily visible in the study of

653
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:47,900
embodiment practices,

654
00:20:48,060 --> 00:20:49,940
various social phenomena.

655
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,020
A more social approach,

656
00:20:52,060 --> 00:20:53,960
to certain health phenomena,

657
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:54,980
is one thing. The fact

658
00:20:54,980 --> 00:20:57,460
that Rita Sharon is a family medicine physician

659
00:20:57,460 --> 00:20:58,040
is also important.

660
00:20:58,590 --> 00:20:59,270
But it's also true

661
00:20:59,350 --> 00:21:01,130
that she operates in an American context,

662
00:21:01,130 --> 00:21:03,190
where healthcare is not

663
00:21:03,190 --> 00:21:04,110
publicly funded.

664
00:21:04,670 --> 00:21:07,690
She encounters, for example, the impact of

665
00:21:07,730 --> 00:21:11,190
poverty on treatment processes.

666
00:21:11,250 --> 00:21:11,810
Because here, as we

667
00:21:11,810 --> 00:21:12,290
know,

668
00:21:12,290 --> 00:21:13,910
poverty also affects treatment processes,

669
00:21:13,970 --> 00:21:14,470
right?

670
00:21:15,570 --> 00:21:17,590
Not long ago, people might not have been able to

671
00:21:17,590 --> 00:21:19,070
afford medications after leaving the doctor's office.

672
00:21:19,110 --> 00:21:20,910
Now, this has been somewhat limited by these

673
00:21:20,910 --> 00:21:24,290
reimbursements for medications for people under 85,

674
00:21:24,750 --> 00:21:26,330
those over a certain age.

675
00:21:26,430 --> 00:21:27,550
We also have reimbursements for

676
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:28,620
some medications, completely

677
00:21:28,820 --> 00:21:30,080
free of charge,

678
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,880
the whole process is complicated,

679
00:21:32,020 --> 00:21:32,980
reimbursed.

680
00:21:33,580 --> 00:21:34,780
However, there,

681
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,620
if you don't have appropriate

682
00:21:37,620 --> 00:21:38,220
insurance,

683
00:21:38,220 --> 00:21:40,460
you can be left either completely without access to healthcare

684
00:21:40,460 --> 00:21:40,960
or

685
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:42,500
unable to purchase medications.

686
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:42,900
I remember

687
00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:43,760
once reading

688
00:21:43,780 --> 00:21:47,140
a piece, though not by Rita Sharon,

689
00:21:47,140 --> 00:21:48,740
about a patient

690
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,720
who died because

691
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,440
he couldn't afford insulin.

692
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,320
This was a few years ago,

693
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:55,280
because it seems

694
00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:57,600
there are some reforms

695
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:58,080
related to this in the United States now.

696
00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:58,960
I don't want to go into detail

697
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,360
because I don't know enough about it,

698
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,480
but American doctors also operate in

699
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:04,240
a different context,

700
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,880
where access to healthcare isn't a given.

701
00:22:07,740 --> 00:22:08,780
It's not assumed

702
00:22:08,860 --> 00:22:10,260
that it's for everyone,

703
00:22:10,260 --> 00:22:12,520
that it should be equally accessible.

704
00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:14,820
So these are also social issues

705
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:16,280
that anthropology grapples with.

706
00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:17,420
The problem of inequality,

707
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,340
which is widely discussed.

708
00:22:19,930 --> 00:22:22,150
And participant observation,

709
00:22:22,170 --> 00:22:23,030
for example,

710
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:24,270
what I mentioned about the principles

711
00:22:24,270 --> 00:22:26,850
formulated regarding

712
00:22:26,870 --> 00:22:29,490
how narrative medicine should be understood and

713
00:22:29,490 --> 00:22:30,130
practiced,

714
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:32,210
is this principle of reciprocity,

715
00:22:32,210 --> 00:22:33,090
this feedback,

716
00:22:33,090 --> 00:22:34,470
that we form the principles,

717
00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:36,570
observe how they work in our practice,

718
00:22:36,590 --> 00:22:37,730
then return to these principles,

719
00:22:37,850 --> 00:22:38,690
reformulate them.

720
00:22:38,730 --> 00:22:40,790
This also draws from methodology,

721
00:22:40,790 --> 00:22:42,170
cultural anthropology,

722
00:22:42,210 --> 00:22:44,410
which is the flagship method.

723
00:22:44,410 --> 00:22:45,890
Participant observation is

724
00:22:45,950 --> 00:22:48,330
where you enter a given environment.

725
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:49,800
You experience

726
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,840
how a given social group functions

727
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,080
based on your own experiences,

728
00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:56,219
then you create,

729
00:22:56,219 --> 00:22:56,620
write,

730
00:22:56,620 --> 00:22:58,220
and act on what

731
00:22:58,300 --> 00:22:59,140
you've experienced.

732
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,480
This also resonates in narrative medicine.

733
00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:05,160
Well, that's all I can say about my

734
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:05,480
field,

735
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:06,600
cultural anthropology, for example,

736
00:23:06,660 --> 00:23:08,320
but also the influence of philosophy,

737
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:08,860
in other words,

738
00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:09,440
what I mentioned,

739
00:23:09,460 --> 00:23:11,060
that unfortunate

740
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:11,660
Cartesian dualism,

741
00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:14,020
which I'm so terribly attached to.

742
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,400
This, in turn,

743
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,760
involves a philosophical approach to

744
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,500
how medical practice was shaped.

745
00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:22,640
Let's face it,

746
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,920
every reflection on the world

747
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,000
has its origins in philosophy,

748
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,660
right?
So medicine also has its origins in philosophy,

749
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,980
because it is a science for this simple reason.

750
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,960
And philosophical approaches also shape the way

751
00:23:35,180 --> 00:23:37,680
a given science develops in a given region.

752
00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:39,640
Because we are also dealing with a type of medicine

753
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,960
that developed here in Europe for some

754
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:42,900
social and

755
00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:43,700
cultural reasons.

756
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,120
Not, of course, as language experts.

757
00:23:46,780 --> 00:23:48,140
I'm happy with all the fragments,

758
00:23:48,140 --> 00:23:50,420
Where does anything about linguistics appear?

759
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:52,520
Although there's not much of it.

760
00:23:53,060 --> 00:23:53,820
I was glad, of course,

761
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,260
that there was talk of conceptual metaphor,

762
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:58,940
notional metaphor, and so on,

763
00:23:59,020 --> 00:24:00,740
perhaps a bit of cognitive poetics,

764
00:24:00,740 --> 00:24:05,220
so it's like these areas don't really

765
00:24:05,220 --> 00:24:07,920
represent the achievements of linguistics to a great extent.

766
00:24:07,940 --> 00:24:08,620
But I'm thinking, well,

767
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,220
maybe the specificity of

768
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:11,520
Rita Sharon's studies,

769
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:12,780
right?
And also that

770
00:24:12,820 --> 00:24:15,540
the United States is dominated by a different kind

771
00:24:15,540 --> 00:24:16,320
of linguistics,

772
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:18,660
perhaps less cognitive.

773
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,760
It's more accepted in Europe,

774
00:24:21,780 --> 00:24:23,700
so that's how I answered it myself.

775
00:24:23,780 --> 00:24:25,180
But those moments

776
00:24:25,180 --> 00:24:27,360
when we talk about close reading, when

777
00:24:27,380 --> 00:24:29,800
we look at the formal structure of the text,

778
00:24:29,820 --> 00:24:30,720
at word-by-word

779
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:31,960
contact with the word

780
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:32,980
—that's my area of ​​expertise, is

781
00:24:32,980 --> 00:24:36,480
n't it?
So we're kind of looking at the form of the word from every angle,

782
00:24:36,540 --> 00:24:37,400
wondering,

783
00:24:37,420 --> 00:24:39,620
right,
in what tense form, and so on,

784
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:40,420
what significance it has.

785
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:41,160
So I have the impression

786
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,780
that for a linguist there's something there too.

787
00:24:44,060 --> 00:24:44,560
Absolutely,

788
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:45,020
not more so.

789
00:24:45,020 --> 00:24:47,820
But these are also things that border on psychoanalysis,

790
00:24:47,860 --> 00:24:49,000
and some methods,

791
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,840
but also serve precisely through linguistics and

792
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,740
the study of words to release such

793
00:24:55,740 --> 00:24:56,740
tensions,

794
00:24:56,940 --> 00:24:59,060
to reveal contexts,

795
00:24:59,060 --> 00:24:59,880
illnesses.

796
00:25:00,020 --> 00:25:01,200
Identifying metaphors.

797
00:25:01,290 --> 00:25:01,610
Sure,

798
00:25:01,610 --> 00:25:01,930
right?

799
00:25:01,930 --> 00:25:02,410
Exactly.

800
00:25:02,410 --> 00:25:04,410
Here we have linguistic tools

801
00:25:04,450 --> 00:25:06,790
that can also be useful.

802
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:08,930
What if we were to organize

803
00:25:08,930 --> 00:25:09,770
the terminology a bit more,

804
00:25:09,790 --> 00:25:12,330
or the scope of such broad concepts

805
00:25:12,330 --> 00:25:14,170
as narrative medicine,

806
00:25:14,190 --> 00:25:15,610
humanistic medicine,

807
00:25:15,650 --> 00:25:17,050
medical humanities?

808
00:25:17,390 --> 00:25:17,990
I don't know,

809
00:25:18,010 --> 00:25:19,910
would you perhaps try to pinpoint

810
00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:21,710
what narrative medicine is?

811
00:25:21,850 --> 00:25:24,470
Is it part of humanistic medicine,

812
00:25:24,470 --> 00:25:26,310
or can it be seen as part of

813
00:25:26,310 --> 00:25:26,890
medical humanities?

814
00:25:26,910 --> 00:25:28,250
I'm actually drawn to these two concepts

815
00:25:28,270 --> 00:25:29,470
because they're very similar.

816
00:25:29,530 --> 00:25:30,030
Yes,

817
00:25:30,250 --> 00:25:33,110
but they emphasize different things,

818
00:25:33,110 --> 00:25:33,610
right?

819
00:25:33,610 --> 00:25:35,070
Humanistic medicine,

820
00:25:35,070 --> 00:25:36,030
as I understand it,

821
00:25:36,110 --> 00:25:37,150
is the kind of medicine

822
00:25:37,150 --> 00:25:38,710
that suddenly stumbles upon itself and says,

823
00:25:38,750 --> 00:25:40,410
no,
we're missing something here,

824
00:25:40,430 --> 00:25:43,530
right?
We want to complement our practice with some

825
00:25:43,530 --> 00:25:45,870
humanistic components, and I think

826
00:25:45,890 --> 00:25:48,890
that's where narrative medicine emerged,

827
00:25:48,930 --> 00:25:52,510
right?
But beyond that, we also have this vast field

828
00:25:52,510 --> 00:25:54,790
to which our project is devoted—

829
00:25:54,950 --> 00:25:57,990
the whole medical humanities thing,

830
00:25:57,990 --> 00:25:58,330
right?

831
00:25:58,330 --> 00:25:59,410
And it's like,

832
00:26:00,010 --> 00:26:01,250
"A bit of a different angle,

833
00:26:01,330 --> 00:26:05,510
" right?
We look at

834
00:26:05,510 --> 00:26:06,110
medical problems from a humanities perspective.

835
00:26:06,130 --> 00:26:08,650
You have access to both perspectives,

836
00:26:08,650 --> 00:26:09,290
so you'd know that.

837
00:26:09,290 --> 00:26:10,190
I hope

838
00:26:10,190 --> 00:26:10,690
I do.

839
00:26:10,870 --> 00:26:11,750
I'll say right away

840
00:26:11,750 --> 00:26:13,050
that these distinctions

841
00:26:13,050 --> 00:26:14,490
aren't my cup of tea ,

842
00:26:14,550 --> 00:26:15,970
because for me, these are concepts

843
00:26:15,970 --> 00:26:18,190
that overlap significantly and have many

844
00:26:18,190 --> 00:26:20,430
common elements.

845
00:26:20,430 --> 00:26:22,190
I don't know
if I'm seeing this correctly,

846
00:26:22,210 --> 00:26:23,010
but I'll say it right away.

847
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,220
Narrative medicine is a formalized concept

848
00:26:26,220 --> 00:26:27,380
introduced by Rita Sharon,

849
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:28,540
who studied it at Columbia,

850
00:26:28,780 --> 00:26:30,840
and can be used for master's and

851
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,360
postgraduate degrees.

852
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,720
Courses in this field are taught

853
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,400
in Poland,

854
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:37,260
Italy,

855
00:26:37,260 --> 00:26:39,180
and various places around the world,

856
00:26:39,220 --> 00:26:42,720
drawing on Rita Sharon's practice.

857
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,060
They're inspired by

858
00:26:44,100 --> 00:26:44,920
what's being done at Columbia.

859
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,100
Humanistic medicine.

860
00:26:47,470 --> 00:26:48,510
This is a broader concept,

861
00:26:48,550 --> 00:26:50,130
which I feel encompasses

862
00:26:50,130 --> 00:26:50,750
narrative medicine.

863
00:26:50,810 --> 00:26:51,810
Humanistic medicine,

864
00:26:51,810 --> 00:26:52,730
as you've already said,

865
00:26:52,730 --> 00:26:54,330
is medical practice

866
00:26:54,350 --> 00:26:57,270
that has shifted its focus to the humanities due

867
00:26:57,270 --> 00:26:59,050
to a sense of deficiency.

868
00:27:00,270 --> 00:27:04,610
Psychiatry is a specific example here,

869
00:27:04,610 --> 00:27:05,830
but then again, Kempiński is the whole story,

870
00:27:05,890 --> 00:27:06,230
isn't it?

871
00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:06,850
Yes.

872
00:27:06,890 --> 00:27:07,810
This is medicine,

873
00:27:07,810 --> 00:27:09,150
humanistic psychiatry,

874
00:27:09,150 --> 00:27:13,070
which looks at social and cultural

875
00:27:13,070 --> 00:27:14,190
contexts,

876
00:27:14,210 --> 00:27:15,010
at the patient.

877
00:27:15,450 --> 00:27:17,650
It wants to see the patient holistically,

878
00:27:17,650 --> 00:27:18,730
not just biologically—

879
00:27:18,730 --> 00:27:19,570
these are such attempts.

880
00:27:19,630 --> 00:27:20,990
But there's also Władysław Biegański,

881
00:27:21,070 --> 00:27:22,650
who was an internist,

882
00:27:22,670 --> 00:27:24,810
perhaps even an infectious disease specialist, and a philosopher as well.

883
00:27:24,890 --> 00:27:27,510
He also pondered

884
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:32,070
what philosophical insights could offer medicine as

885
00:27:32,070 --> 00:27:32,810
a science,

886
00:27:32,830 --> 00:27:34,270
simply as an exact science.

887
00:27:34,270 --> 00:27:37,370
He only drew from philosophy some reflections,

888
00:27:37,370 --> 00:27:40,670
contextualizing exact practice,

889
00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:42,350
medical practice, and

890
00:27:42,410 --> 00:27:43,410
research.

891
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:44,700
This is Biegański,

892
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,260
this is Szczeklik,

893
00:27:46,380 --> 00:27:47,340
right?

894
00:27:47,620 --> 00:27:49,280
Also humanistic medicine,

895
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,080
even though he was also a scientist

896
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:54,180
closely connected to exact sciences,

897
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,920
because he also undertook research on prostacyclin at

898
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,180
the Department of Pharmacology—

899
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,440
in other words, exact exactness.

900
00:28:02,500 --> 00:28:07,360
And yet,

901
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:09,540
the life contexts of his patients also provoked considerable reflection.

902
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:10,840
He was known for his

903
00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:11,680
interest, after all,

904
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,360
he founded this entire clinic,

905
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:16,860
which was once located on Skawińska Street,

906
00:28:16,860 --> 00:28:19,040
where he treated pulmonary patients.

907
00:28:19,630 --> 00:28:21,930
And in a more humanistic way, he had

908
00:28:21,930 --> 00:28:23,090
his piano,

909
00:28:23,090 --> 00:28:23,990
which he supposedly played.

910
00:28:24,010 --> 00:28:25,770
Unfortunately, I didn't meet Professor Szczeklik,

911
00:28:25,810 --> 00:28:26,390
as

912
00:28:26,430 --> 00:28:28,190
he died a few months before

913
00:28:28,230 --> 00:28:29,770
I had the opportunity to begin my studies in Krakow.

914
00:28:30,330 --> 00:28:31,770
But his legacy lives on.

915
00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:32,730
Definitely.

916
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:35,350
And these are the contexts of humanistic medicine.

917
00:28:35,390 --> 00:28:36,690
And medical humanities,

918
00:28:36,750 --> 00:28:40,050
or, as we could very simply

919
00:28:40,050 --> 00:28:40,510
put,

920
00:28:40,510 --> 00:28:42,250
writing about medicine and illness.

921
00:28:42,510 --> 00:28:45,130
So, reflections on

922
00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:47,290
how we use language in medicine.

923
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:48,430
Do we say "surgeon"

924
00:28:48,450 --> 00:28:49,910
or "female surgeon,

925
00:28:49,910 --> 00:28:50,630
" or "surgeonwoman,"

926
00:28:50,750 --> 00:28:51,510
or "surgeonwoman"?

927
00:28:52,090 --> 00:28:54,810
Or how we position it?

928
00:28:54,850 --> 00:28:57,170
Because this also somehow resonates with, for example,

929
00:28:57,170 --> 00:28:58,450
the Polish women in medicine initiative.

930
00:28:58,510 --> 00:29:00,230
How do girls see themselves,

931
00:29:00,330 --> 00:29:01,890
what are their specific characteristics?

932
00:29:01,890 --> 00:29:02,830
Do they feel invisible?

933
00:29:02,970 --> 00:29:03,890
Do they feel visible

934
00:29:03,890 --> 00:29:04,770
or invisible?

935
00:29:05,390 --> 00:29:05,750
Exactly.

936
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:06,590
Whether they prefer one

937
00:29:06,650 --> 00:29:07,570
way or another.

938
00:29:07,650 --> 00:29:08,390
And if they prefer one way,

939
00:29:08,410 --> 00:29:08,870
why?

940
00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:09,890
After all, that's important too.

941
00:29:09,970 --> 00:29:10,850
It adds to

942
00:29:10,870 --> 00:29:12,330
how we function.

943
00:29:12,330 --> 00:29:13,690
It somehow determines

944
00:29:13,710 --> 00:29:15,210
how we function in medicine.

945
00:29:15,250 --> 00:29:15,830
As women,

946
00:29:15,890 --> 00:29:16,590
as doctors,

947
00:29:16,590 --> 00:29:17,090
as people

948
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:19,330
working under contract with a fund.

949
00:29:19,370 --> 00:29:20,090
As people

950
00:29:20,110 --> 00:29:21,210
working privately.

951
00:29:21,290 --> 00:29:22,670
After all, all of this matters.

952
00:29:22,850 --> 00:29:24,830
So all of this is medical humanities,

953
00:29:24,850 --> 00:29:26,930
which allows us to better understand our roles.

954
00:29:27,130 --> 00:29:29,480
Our role for each other,

955
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:30,480
our role towards the people

956
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,600
we provide our services to.

957
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,320
Perhaps we should also try

958
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,220
to think about narrative medicine,

959
00:29:36,220 --> 00:29:39,060
what it looks like in clinical practice.

960
00:29:39,260 --> 00:29:40,200
We've already mentioned

961
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,400
that the relationship in the United States is different than

962
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,580
here.
Here, access to medical care is indeed

963
00:29:45,580 --> 00:29:47,340
guaranteed for everyone,

964
00:29:47,420 --> 00:29:49,800
but we also have private medical care.

965
00:29:49,820 --> 00:29:54,360
You can sometimes feel the difference between the quality

966
00:29:54,380 --> 00:29:55,980
and duration of care

967
00:29:56,430 --> 00:29:58,010
in the private sector.

968
00:29:58,010 --> 00:30:00,930
What does a doctor's daily practice look like, and

969
00:30:00,930 --> 00:30:03,690
is there a place for narrative medicine here,

970
00:30:04,410 --> 00:30:05,070
in our country?

971
00:30:05,070 --> 00:30:07,190
Because our system is so organized,

972
00:30:07,230 --> 00:30:07,570
isn't it?

973
00:30:07,570 --> 00:30:08,390
It's impossible,

974
00:30:08,450 --> 00:30:10,090
there's not enough time,

975
00:30:10,170 --> 00:30:10,670
and so on.

976
00:30:10,890 --> 00:30:13,190
Is there even a place for narrative,

977
00:30:13,210 --> 00:30:15,670
for the practice of narrative medicine here?

978
00:30:16,270 --> 00:30:18,030
So we're getting closer to a topic

979
00:30:18,030 --> 00:30:19,810
I consider my passion,

980
00:30:19,810 --> 00:30:22,330
That is, physician burnout.

981
00:30:22,540 --> 00:30:26,240
And I'd like to talk more about

982
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,920
the professional performance of medical workers,

983
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,280
but I might not go into detail

984
00:30:29,340 --> 00:30:30,980
because I simply know more about doctors;

985
00:30:30,980 --> 00:30:32,180
I've been more interested in them,

986
00:30:32,180 --> 00:30:32,600
I've read about them,

987
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:33,780
and that's my environment,

988
00:30:33,780 --> 00:30:34,400
so I know them,

989
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:34,800
but I think

990
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,480
nurses, for example, are also familiar with them,

991
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:37,140
right?

992
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:37,940
Probably.

993
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:39,020
I don't

994
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,100
think there's no place for narrative medicine in the Polish

995
00:30:43,100 --> 00:30:44,060
healthcare system.

996
00:30:44,100 --> 00:30:44,860
I think
there is.

997
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,060
However, implementing it,

998
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,300
even if it were to exist,

999
00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:50,200
would be difficult.

1000
00:30:50,460 --> 00:30:52,840
Because, de facto, there's no

1001
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:53,300
place for it today,

1002
00:30:53,300 --> 00:30:55,360
because there are time limits,

1003
00:30:55,460 --> 00:30:57,000
patient admission limits, and

1004
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,320
billing with the National Health Fund (NFZ) is handled in a particular

1005
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:00,180
way.

1006
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,820
And right now, there's no room to

1007
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,100
see a patient through primary care and

1008
00:31:06,100 --> 00:31:07,460
talk to them for half an hour.

1009
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,700
Because there's a line of snotty people in the hallway,

1010
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,120
nervous

1011
00:31:12,140 --> 00:31:13,860
about whether they'll get to see the doctor

1012
00:31:13,860 --> 00:31:14,220
or not,

1013
00:31:14,220 --> 00:31:15,440
whether the doctor will stay after hours

1014
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:16,060
to see them

1015
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:16,580
or not.

1016
00:31:17,580 --> 00:31:18,760
They're already arguing with each other about

1017
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,040
who was first in line.

1018
00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:20,540
A queue,

1019
00:31:20,540 --> 00:31:21,040
yes.

1020
00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:22,580
Queue philosophy.

1021
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:23,200
Exactly.

1022
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,480
Then they argue with the doctor about

1023
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:25,580
who was first in line,

1024
00:31:25,620 --> 00:31:27,040
so that's how it is at the moment.

1025
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,880
And we're faced with a moral dilemma here.

1026
00:31:29,940 --> 00:31:31,360
Should we devote as much time to the patient

1027
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,020
as they would like, and how much would be good

1028
00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:36,500
for the patient, for the patient and for us as well,

1029
00:31:36,540 --> 00:31:38,560
for our own mental health?

1030
00:31:38,660 --> 00:31:41,140
Or should we admit all 30 people

1031
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:42,640
standing outside the door,

1032
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,140
because that's an ethical issue,

1033
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:44,660
right?

1034
00:31:45,899 --> 00:31:48,360
One decision has its advantages and the other has its

1035
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:48,860
advantages.

1036
00:31:48,940 --> 00:31:51,200
Should we admit 10 people during the day and do it

1037
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:51,520
well,

1038
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:52,220
or admit 30

1039
00:31:52,420 --> 00:31:54,360
so that their needs are met,

1040
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,720
so that they're met somehow,

1041
00:31:56,740 --> 00:31:57,440
at least somewhat,

1042
00:31:57,620 --> 00:31:58,860
but still.

1043
00:31:59,100 --> 00:32:01,040
Should we issue sick leave certificates to these people.

1044
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:02,200
And so that the system continues to run.

1045
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:02,780
Exactly.

1046
00:32:02,780 --> 00:32:03,800
And I do

1047
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,220
n't think there's a good answer to this right now

1048
00:32:05,220 --> 00:32:05,840
.
But I think

1049
00:32:05,860 --> 00:32:08,400
there's room for implementing narrative medicine

1050
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:08,880
, it

1051
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,740
just requires systemic changes.

1052
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,160
Because in the system

1053
00:32:12,180 --> 00:32:12,600
as it is,

1054
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:13,900
I don't really see it happening.

1055
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,980
However, considering the burnout of

1056
00:32:16,980 --> 00:32:18,340
healthcare workers,

1057
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:19,800
the flight to other sectors,

1058
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,020
the flight from the public sector to the private sector, and

1059
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:24,500
this exodus of specialists, especially

1060
00:32:24,500 --> 00:32:26,740
since residents are generally bound by an employment contract

1061
00:32:26,740 --> 00:32:28,300
and must be in the public system—

1062
00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:30,840
not always in that way,

1063
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,520
but in the vast majority of cases—

1064
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:34,300
I think

1065
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:35,540
that if we don't do something

1066
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,500
to start encouraging people to work in

1067
00:32:37,500 --> 00:32:37,960
medicine,

1068
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,660
we'll wake up in a bad state in,

1069
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,400
I don't know,
say 10 years from now,

1070
00:32:42,500 --> 00:32:43,000
right?

1071
00:32:43,370 --> 00:32:45,650
So I see a role for narrative medicine in preventing

1072
00:32:45,650 --> 00:32:46,450
this burnout.

1073
00:32:46,510 --> 00:32:50,090
Narrative medicine serves not only to recognize

1074
00:32:50,090 --> 00:32:50,870
the needs of patients

1075
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:52,210
but also of medical staff.

1076
00:32:52,210 --> 00:32:54,430
It's about recognizing not only the patient's role in

1077
00:32:54,430 --> 00:32:55,210
their family,

1078
00:32:55,210 --> 00:32:55,630
social,

1079
00:32:55,630 --> 00:32:56,210
and cultural context,

1080
00:32:56,290 --> 00:32:57,410
their life story,

1081
00:32:57,490 --> 00:32:59,890
but also seeing my relationship—

1082
00:32:59,890 --> 00:33:00,770
me and the patient

1083
00:33:00,770 --> 00:33:01,930
sitting across from me.

1084
00:33:02,070 --> 00:33:05,530
So I also add to this understanding, perhaps

1085
00:33:05,530 --> 00:33:08,270
medical practitioners themselves—

1086
00:33:08,430 --> 00:33:09,990
understanding:

1087
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,840
Why do I feel more tired lately?

1088
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,920
Or why don't I feel like coming to work?

1089
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,480
Why are these patients starting to annoy me?

1090
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:17,900
For example,

1091
00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:19,700
why do I feel like sending them out the door?

1092
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,860
Instead of snapping at them, like,

1093
00:33:22,860 --> 00:33:24,660
"I don't have the energy anymore and you can go away,"

1094
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,000
maybe we should just pause

1095
00:33:27,060 --> 00:33:29,920
because the system doesn't give us the space.

1096
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:31,400
So if we feel

1097
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:32,500
the system isn't giving us the space,

1098
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,220
then we don't give ourselves the space either.

1099
00:33:34,220 --> 00:33:35,660
It's a domino effect.

1100
00:33:36,269 --> 00:33:38,710
I see narrative medicine as a tool

1101
00:33:38,730 --> 00:33:40,010
that could help

1102
00:33:40,050 --> 00:33:41,790
counteract this,

1103
00:33:41,790 --> 00:33:43,890
even if only to a small extent, and I'll also say right away

1104
00:33:43,910 --> 00:33:45,830
that it's probably not the optimal solution for everyone

1105
00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:46,150
.

1106
00:33:46,150 --> 00:33:48,810
I'd like to see systemic shifts

1107
00:33:48,870 --> 00:33:50,770
that would allow for the implementation of these solutions.

1108
00:33:50,830 --> 00:33:51,610
That's how I would put it.

1109
00:33:51,820 --> 00:33:52,660
But how do we do it,

1110
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,300
right?
I feel it's primarily about long-term success.

1111
00:33:55,540 --> 00:33:55,960
But I think it's

1112
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,160
about stimulating that mountain

1113
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:58,280
that can make a difference.

1114
00:33:58,280 --> 00:33:59,020
Well, yes,
yes.

1115
00:33:59,340 --> 00:34:02,360
As a medical community, we raise many issues.

1116
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,320
Burnout is one of them.

1117
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,720
No one yet proposes narrative medicine as

1118
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,699
such,
using that phrase. For example

1119
00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:10,300
,

1120
00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:11,860
the issue of documentation is often raised

1121
00:34:11,860 --> 00:34:12,639
.

1122
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:13,179
And I have the impression

1123
00:34:13,179 --> 00:34:14,880
that when we talk about

1124
00:34:14,900 --> 00:34:17,940
filling out documentation,

1125
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,719
which takes more time, and we don't have time for

1126
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:21,100
the patient

1127
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:22,360
because we have to look at paperwork,

1128
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,600
we're talking about this lack of time to

1129
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,199
understand ourselves better in this relationship.

1130
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,080
And the practice of narrative medicine assumes somewhere

1131
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:30,639
that

1132
00:34:30,659 --> 00:34:33,239
the doctor can take these

1133
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:34,020
parallel notes,

1134
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,440
right?
So how do I even think about

1135
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,120
where else I can squeeze in time to

1136
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:39,719
take parallel notes during this visit ?

1137
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,020
And I also have the impression

1138
00:34:41,020 --> 00:34:43,340
that sometimes when I talk to doctors about

1139
00:34:43,340 --> 00:34:44,000
narrative medicine,

1140
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,820
they laugh a little at me.

1141
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:46,340
They say,

1142
00:34:46,340 --> 00:34:49,219
"Where else am I supposed to take mindful notes?"

1143
00:34:50,670 --> 00:34:51,710
This is also a good time

1144
00:34:51,730 --> 00:34:52,310
to say

1145
00:34:52,350 --> 00:34:53,350
that's not what I mean,

1146
00:34:53,429 --> 00:34:55,590
to squeeze that into those seven minutes,

1147
00:34:55,690 --> 00:34:57,270
because that would be terrible,

1148
00:34:57,270 --> 00:34:57,770
I think.

1149
00:34:57,950 --> 00:34:59,670
It's just to change the system so

1150
00:34:59,730 --> 00:35:02,130
there's at least a little more space for it.

1151
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,740
But to start practicing,

1152
00:35:04,820 --> 00:35:05,960
you have to learn,

1153
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:06,460
right?

1154
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,780
And maybe we could talk about those narrative medicine workshops

1155
00:35:09,780 --> 00:35:12,680
for a while,

1156
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,200
because it's amazing

1157
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:16,720
that you attended one.

1158
00:35:17,180 --> 00:35:17,660
Please

1159
00:35:17,660 --> 00:35:19,360
tell me, and all of us,

1160
00:35:19,420 --> 00:35:20,960
what it's like,

1161
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:22,980
right?
What do these workshops look like?

1162
00:35:23,180 --> 00:35:23,960
How long do they last?

1163
00:35:24,060 --> 00:35:24,800
Is it one day,

1164
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:25,440
two hours,

1165
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:26,960
maybe a two-day meeting?

1166
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,140
And what do you do during them?

1167
00:35:28,540 --> 00:35:28,860
The fact

1168
00:35:28,860 --> 00:35:31,940
that we attended the Milan

1169
00:35:31,940 --> 00:35:34,600
workshop with the book editor,

1170
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:34,980
Hubert, and Mateusz,

1171
00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:35,420
not just once,

1172
00:35:35,420 --> 00:35:38,400
but later Mateusz and Hubert also led a

1173
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:39,200
working group

1174
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:40,600
where they led,

1175
00:35:40,660 --> 00:35:42,960
we conducted our own work on

1176
00:35:42,980 --> 00:35:44,180
how to manage this.

1177
00:35:44,300 --> 00:35:47,520
The workshops with Rita were our model,

1178
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,300
but also, drawing from the practice of narrative medicine,

1179
00:35:51,300 --> 00:35:54,510
we conducted participant observation of these workshops

1180
00:35:54,510 --> 00:35:56,630
within our own working group,

1181
00:35:56,630 --> 00:35:59,710
also with people involved in this practice and

1182
00:35:59,710 --> 00:36:02,070
disseminating this approach in Krakow.

1183
00:36:02,750 --> 00:36:04,050
As for Rita,

1184
00:36:04,130 --> 00:36:07,710
Professor Sharon had a phase for discussing

1185
00:36:07,710 --> 00:36:10,910
works of art and led several

1186
00:36:10,910 --> 00:36:11,470
workshops

1187
00:36:11,490 --> 00:36:13,350
in a row where paintings were discussed.

1188
00:36:13,390 --> 00:36:14,850
We focused on paintings,

1189
00:36:14,850 --> 00:36:17,670
so we shared our observations and

1190
00:36:17,670 --> 00:36:18,970
feelings about the painting.

1191
00:36:19,010 --> 00:36:21,530
Then we wrote a short text related to the painting.

1192
00:36:21,570 --> 00:36:21,890
People

1193
00:36:21,890 --> 00:36:23,430
who wanted to read the text

1194
00:36:23,430 --> 00:36:25,250
had this phase.

1195
00:36:25,350 --> 00:36:26,370
Was that creative writing?

1196
00:36:26,430 --> 00:36:27,130
Yes,
yes.

1197
00:36:27,370 --> 00:36:29,050
They had a chance to share

1198
00:36:29,290 --> 00:36:30,330
their text.

1199
00:36:30,430 --> 00:36:30,930
Those

1200
00:36:30,970 --> 00:36:31,930
who didn't feel like it

1201
00:36:31,930 --> 00:36:32,610
didn't have to.

1202
00:36:32,790 --> 00:36:34,590
The professor offered her own comments.

1203
00:36:34,690 --> 00:36:36,210
Participants could also share,

1204
00:36:36,210 --> 00:36:39,350
but we were doing a close reading of a painting.

1205
00:36:41,210 --> 00:36:42,370
So it's possible too.

1206
00:36:42,470 --> 00:36:46,070
Mateusz and Hubert, I also once pored over

1207
00:36:46,070 --> 00:36:48,150
a musical work.

1208
00:36:49,130 --> 00:36:51,310
So this close inquiry takes on various forms.

1209
00:36:51,470 --> 00:36:53,490
Not just literary texts,

1210
00:36:53,490 --> 00:36:54,050
as it turns out.

1211
00:36:54,610 --> 00:36:55,890
Cultural texts.
Cultural texts,

1212
00:36:55,890 --> 00:36:56,630
more broadly speaking.

1213
00:36:56,650 --> 00:36:57,630
Paintings,

1214
00:36:57,630 --> 00:36:58,870
musical works,

1215
00:36:58,970 --> 00:36:59,970
and,

1216
00:37:00,030 --> 00:37:02,110
I don't know,
theater performances could also be included here.

1217
00:37:02,150 --> 00:37:02,810
Probably yes,

1218
00:37:02,890 --> 00:37:05,370
although I don't know from my own photography.

1219
00:37:05,370 --> 00:37:06,090
Well, some

1220
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:07,570
other codes,
right ?

1221
00:37:07,710 --> 00:37:09,590
Because it's all about this methodology of

1222
00:37:09,590 --> 00:37:11,410
mindfulness,

1223
00:37:11,450 --> 00:37:13,530
drawn from literary studies,

1224
00:37:13,550 --> 00:37:15,710
but also from mindfulness practice.

1225
00:37:16,490 --> 00:37:19,610
We began these Krakow narrative medicine meetings

1226
00:37:19,610 --> 00:37:21,650
with a short mindfulness practice.

1227
00:37:21,790 --> 00:37:24,310
A strictly mindful

1228
00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:24,990
mindfulness practice.

1229
00:37:25,150 --> 00:37:28,730
Where in Poland can you get into a

1230
00:37:28,730 --> 00:37:29,850
narrative medicine workshop,

1231
00:37:29,850 --> 00:37:31,710
or perhaps these narrative meetings?

1232
00:37:31,930 --> 00:37:34,150
Krakow is certainly one such place.

1233
00:37:36,030 --> 00:37:38,170
It's the Medical Humanities Club,

1234
00:37:38,170 --> 00:37:39,450
right?
At the Jagiellonian University.

1235
00:37:39,550 --> 00:37:42,130
It's now called the

1236
00:37:42,130 --> 00:37:42,970
Medical Humanities Laboratory,

1237
00:37:43,010 --> 00:37:43,330
right?

1238
00:37:43,330 --> 00:37:44,730
Because

1239
00:37:44,790 --> 00:37:47,070
we finished our studies and stopped being a club.

1240
00:37:47,390 --> 00:37:47,910
Yes,

1241
00:37:48,030 --> 00:37:48,530
yes.

1242
00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:50,070
But the idea persists,

1243
00:37:50,070 --> 00:37:50,750
right?
The idea persists,

1244
00:37:50,750 --> 00:37:51,190
yes.

1245
00:37:51,190 --> 00:37:53,970
There will be a three-day meeting in Leńcze near Krakow,

1246
00:37:54,510 --> 00:37:55,750
with several narrative sessions.

1247
00:37:56,460 --> 00:37:57,500
It also seems

1248
00:37:57,540 --> 00:37:58,320
that bringing together people

1249
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,340
who are already working on this

1250
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:02,180
isn't a criterion;

1251
00:38:02,180 --> 00:38:04,060
it just happens

1252
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:04,860
that those

1253
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,540
focused on working on methodology and

1254
00:38:08,540 --> 00:38:10,880
refining this methodology somehow

1255
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,280
meet.

1256
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:14,260
We're certainly not the only ones.

1257
00:38:14,620 --> 00:38:15,840
Is there a source

1258
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,160
where one can learn about such

1259
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:18,820
planned events?

1260
00:38:18,820 --> 00:38:19,320
There is.

1261
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:20,860
I think

1262
00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:23,640
there's a website called narrativemedicine.less.pl

1263
00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:27,040
There's also a website for the Medical Humanities Laboratory

1264
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:28,560
right here in Krakowska Street.

1265
00:38:29,210 --> 00:38:32,170
Our Medical Communication Studies also sometimes

1266
00:38:32,170 --> 00:38:33,410
engage in such things,

1267
00:38:33,490 --> 00:38:35,110
but rarely, only occasionally.

1268
00:38:35,110 --> 00:38:37,910
However, we encourage you to contact

1269
00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:39,170
us personally.
That doesn't mean

1270
00:38:39,210 --> 00:38:41,770
it's not happening,

1271
00:38:41,850 --> 00:38:42,490
but you have to let us know

1272
00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:43,310
what you'll organize.

1273
00:38:43,510 --> 00:38:44,010
Exactly

1274
00:38:44,490 --> 00:38:47,170
We're committed to this, and we're constantly on the subject,

1275
00:38:47,190 --> 00:38:49,130
so you can simply

1276
00:38:49,130 --> 00:38:50,290
contact us directly, using different names.

1277
00:38:50,310 --> 00:38:51,510
And call a meeting.

1278
00:38:51,770 --> 00:38:52,270
Yes,

1279
00:38:52,270 --> 00:38:54,190
the meeting with Rita Sharon, for example, consisted of

1280
00:38:54,190 --> 00:38:56,390
two such hour-long meetings with a break.

1281
00:38:56,490 --> 00:38:58,090
So, if you don't have to go to university,

1282
00:38:58,090 --> 00:38:58,940
but for a master's degree, no.

1283
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,380
You can also look for such places in our country.

1284
00:39:02,460 --> 00:39:03,140
Definitely yes.

1285
00:39:03,260 --> 00:39:05,460
But you don't even have to go overseas,

1286
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,860
because some of the courses offered by Colombia

1287
00:39:08,860 --> 00:39:09,540
are online.

1288
00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:12,120
And you can sign up for such courses and participate

1289
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,660
in meetings with the founders of this field.

1290
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:15,800
A lot is happening in Sweden too,

1291
00:39:15,860 --> 00:39:16,880
right?
As you said,

1292
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:18,160
right?
Or in Germany, I suspect

1293
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:18,780
it will be established in Europe.

1294
00:39:18,780 --> 00:39:19,460
In Italy.

1295
00:39:19,460 --> 00:39:19,600
In Italy,
yes,

1296
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:19,920
yes.

1297
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:21,160
There's a strong group in Italy.

1298
00:39:21,180 --> 00:39:21,680
Exactly.

1299
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,360
Also centered around adepts.

1300
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,640
So maybe it will slowly move further east and

1301
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:27,660
It will also encompass us here,

1302
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,320
increasingly.

1303
00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:30,540
So,

1304
00:39:30,540 --> 00:39:33,580
let's finally return to teaching.

1305
00:39:33,620 --> 00:39:36,740
In the medical communication program, you teach future

1306
00:39:36,740 --> 00:39:37,480
physicians, right,

1307
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,280
because you have courses focused on

1308
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,020
patient communication. Do you,

1309
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,040
I don't know, manage to consider elements of

1310
00:39:45,100 --> 00:39:45,800
narrative

1311
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,160
medicine in this curriculum?

1312
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,840
Is there even room

1313
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,420
to incorporate such elements of narrative?

1314
00:39:54,750 --> 00:39:56,450
Developing communication skills.

1315
00:39:56,490 --> 00:39:56,870
It seems like

1316
00:39:56,870 --> 00:39:58,530
it could be done,

1317
00:39:58,670 --> 00:39:59,370
right?
I think

1318
00:39:59,370 --> 00:40:01,750
that when teaching communication , we

1319
00:40:01,750 --> 00:40:04,170
inevitably touch upon narrative medicine,

1320
00:40:04,310 --> 00:40:08,130
because these are interconnected topics, and some of these

1321
00:40:08,130 --> 00:40:09,190
issues overlap.

1322
00:40:09,810 --> 00:40:13,110
Within the program, we teach communication skills—

1323
00:40:13,130 --> 00:40:16,390
what I'd call

1324
00:40:16,390 --> 00:40:17,670
evidence-based medicine—

1325
00:40:17,830 --> 00:40:19,030
because we rely heavily on

1326
00:40:19,110 --> 00:40:21,010
how

1327
00:40:21,050 --> 00:40:21,950
research shows

1328
00:40:21,970 --> 00:40:22,850
it's beneficial.

1329
00:40:23,230 --> 00:40:24,570
Research clearly shows

1330
00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:26,850
that good communication skills are beneficial in

1331
00:40:26,850 --> 00:40:27,330
practice.

1332
00:40:27,330 --> 00:40:29,710
This applies not only to communication skills with

1333
00:40:29,710 --> 00:40:30,250
patients,

1334
00:40:30,250 --> 00:40:31,810
but also between colleagues.

1335
00:40:32,510 --> 00:40:33,690
Medicine is specializing,

1336
00:40:33,730 --> 00:40:34,310
expanding,

1337
00:40:34,310 --> 00:40:37,270
more and more consultations are being requested,

1338
00:40:37,350 --> 00:40:38,710
more and more consultations are being held.

1339
00:40:50,030 --> 00:40:53,850
In the emergency department, sometimes several specialist consultations

1340
00:40:53,850 --> 00:40:54,430
are held.

1341
00:40:55,810 --> 00:41:00,330
So we teach these strictly communication skills,

1342
00:41:00,330 --> 00:41:03,030
but good communication requires some

1343
00:41:03,030 --> 00:41:04,890
consideration of the other.

1344
00:41:04,970 --> 00:41:05,610
Yes,

1345
00:41:05,610 --> 00:41:07,690
of the participant in this communication,

1346
00:41:07,730 --> 00:41:08,770
at least one.

1347
00:41:08,770 --> 00:41:10,130
And of

1348
00:41:10,210 --> 00:41:10,710
how I

1349
00:41:10,750 --> 00:41:13,670
present myself , in what light, when sending a given

1350
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:14,150
message,

1351
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:16,610
so I think they are closely interconnected.

1352
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,140
If we want to develop the methodology of

1353
00:41:20,140 --> 00:41:20,800
narrative medicine,

1354
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,480
communication is an excellent foundation, and we have this foundation,

1355
00:41:23,660 --> 00:41:26,640
because there is a communication program at the

1356
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,140
Medical University of Warsaw.

1357
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,420
Communication is also studied very intensively at

1358
00:41:32,420 --> 00:41:33,540
the Medical College of the Jagiellonian University,

1359
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,480
as part of the Department of Didactics and Medical Education.

1360
00:41:37,620 --> 00:41:40,680
And when it comes to specifically teaching

1361
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,300
narrative medicine at the University,

1362
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,660
there were elective courses at the Jagiellonian University,

1363
00:41:46,660 --> 00:41:49,020
I think last academic year.

1364
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,240
Registration was open, and those classes have already started.

1365
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,260
Two years in a row, I offered this

1366
00:41:55,260 --> 00:41:58,500
option to medical students at

1367
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:01,500
the Medical University of Warsaw, and each

1368
00:42:01,500 --> 00:42:03,080
time, two people signed up.

1369
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,500
So, interest isn't zero,

1370
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:07,520
but it's low.

1371
00:42:07,780 --> 00:42:10,300
But it's also another example

1372
00:42:10,340 --> 00:42:13,160
of Krakow having a different kind of ground.

1373
00:42:13,500 --> 00:42:14,000
Maybe.

1374
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:14,560
Maybe,

1375
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:15,640
but I also think

1376
00:42:15,660 --> 00:42:18,510
that practical aspects also come into play,

1377
00:42:18,510 --> 00:42:20,010
because it also depends on

1378
00:42:20,030 --> 00:42:22,110
the percentage of e-learning courses

1379
00:42:22,170 --> 00:42:23,410
versus in-person courses.

1380
00:42:23,430 --> 00:42:25,110
Various factors come into play.

1381
00:42:25,130 --> 00:42:26,590
However, I'm not devastated.

1382
00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:27,290
I'm very happy

1383
00:42:27,370 --> 00:42:28,590
that these two people signed up.

1384
00:42:28,590 --> 00:42:30,590
I think
we'll meet again

1385
00:42:30,590 --> 00:42:31,210
somewhere down the road.

1386
00:42:31,470 --> 00:42:31,990
I don't know,

1387
00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:32,410
nothing just yet.

1388
00:42:32,410 --> 00:42:33,530
These weren't random people.

1389
00:42:33,830 --> 00:42:35,050
Yes,
and for me, it's also an exercise,

1390
00:42:35,050 --> 00:42:37,250
because I have to construct a goal or reflect

1391
00:42:37,250 --> 00:42:37,730
on

1392
00:42:37,730 --> 00:42:38,750
what I want to teach,

1393
00:42:38,790 --> 00:42:40,050
why I want to teach it,

1394
00:42:40,050 --> 00:42:40,550
not just,

1395
00:42:40,550 --> 00:42:40,970
oh,

1396
00:42:40,970 --> 00:42:42,250
here's narrative medicine,

1397
00:42:42,310 --> 00:42:42,810
get this.

1398
00:42:43,190 --> 00:42:44,590
Why am I offering this to students?

1399
00:42:44,590 --> 00:42:45,370
Why as a doctor?

1400
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:46,600
I think
it could be valuable.

1401
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,880
The name itself is still on my mind,

1402
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:50,380
right?

1403
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:51,560
Narrative medicine.

1404
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:52,910
So if we give,

1405
00:42:52,910 --> 00:42:53,410
well,

1406
00:42:53,410 --> 00:42:55,750
a subject with that name to medical students,

1407
00:42:55,910 --> 00:42:58,610
Well, they might not know

1408
00:42:58,610 --> 00:42:59,610
what to expect,

1409
00:42:59,610 --> 00:43:00,110
right?

1410
00:43:00,290 --> 00:43:02,210
A separate subject with that name,

1411
00:43:02,230 --> 00:43:02,910
in itself.

1412
00:43:03,070 --> 00:43:05,490
Maybe we're not ready for it yet,

1413
00:43:05,490 --> 00:43:05,970
as,
I don't know,

1414
00:43:05,970 --> 00:43:06,730
a community,

1415
00:43:06,790 --> 00:43:10,410
but maybe we could connect these elements,

1416
00:43:10,410 --> 00:43:13,030
right?
With developing communication skills,

1417
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:13,510
right?

1418
00:43:13,510 --> 00:43:16,310
And incorporate elements of narrative medicine as such,

1419
00:43:16,370 --> 00:43:16,810
yes,

1420
00:43:16,810 --> 00:43:18,170
as supporting tools,

1421
00:43:18,210 --> 00:43:19,570
because I think the feeling

1422
00:43:19,570 --> 00:43:21,690
of communicating well is important.

1423
00:43:21,710 --> 00:43:23,090
It's almost like we already have it.

1424
00:43:23,230 --> 00:43:25,630
So, if there's a readiness for communication education,

1425
00:43:25,630 --> 00:43:27,910
and in this way, we could even

1426
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:29,730
broaden the horizon and show

1427
00:43:29,730 --> 00:43:30,950
that there are spaces,

1428
00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:32,410
like narrative medicine,

1429
00:43:32,430 --> 00:43:35,210
that elegantly support us in communication.

1430
00:43:36,070 --> 00:43:38,410
This expression has a narrative element to it,

1431
00:43:39,230 --> 00:43:41,250
which is treated by many people,

1432
00:43:41,410 --> 00:43:42,930
confused with fiction,

1433
00:43:43,030 --> 00:43:43,370
right?

1434
00:43:43,370 --> 00:43:44,370
That it's actually medicine,

1435
00:43:44,450 --> 00:43:46,070
some kind of invented medicine.

1436
00:43:46,130 --> 00:43:47,230
What is that,

1437
00:43:47,270 --> 00:43:47,690
right?

1438
00:43:47,690 --> 00:43:48,330
That was interesting.

1439
00:43:48,570 --> 00:43:49,630
Oh,
exactly.

1440
00:43:50,430 --> 00:43:51,790
I hadn't even thought about

1441
00:43:51,850 --> 00:43:53,390
that there actually was such a connection,

1442
00:43:53,390 --> 00:43:54,550
right?
That he associated narrative with fiction.

1443
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:56,530
Because we associate narrative with literary fiction,

1444
00:43:56,550 --> 00:43:56,910
right?

1445
00:43:56,910 --> 00:43:57,310
So,

1446
00:43:57,310 --> 00:43:57,730
what's that?

1447
00:43:57,730 --> 00:43:59,810
I don't have time to listen to some delusions,

1448
00:43:59,810 --> 00:44:00,170
right?

1449
00:44:00,170 --> 00:44:01,130
A patient and so on.

1450
00:44:01,150 --> 00:44:02,170
He'll be talking

1451
00:44:02,170 --> 00:44:03,230
nonsense ,

1452
00:44:03,270 --> 00:44:04,470
and I have to sift through

1453
00:44:04,470 --> 00:44:05,230
what's true

1454
00:44:05,230 --> 00:44:05,730
and what's not.

1455
00:44:05,790 --> 00:44:08,170
I've encountered those kinds of voices somewhere,

1456
00:44:08,190 --> 00:44:08,560
haven't I?

1457
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,700
Critical ones,

1458
00:44:10,700 --> 00:44:12,480
sort of resisting.

1459
00:44:12,540 --> 00:44:13,400
So I don't know,

1460
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:14,620
maybe there's something to the name itself.

1461
00:44:15,220 --> 00:44:16,060
You see,

1462
00:44:16,060 --> 00:44:17,220
I've been involved in this so long

1463
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,840
that it seems to have stopped resonating with me.

1464
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,880
So I no longer think about the fact

1465
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,220
that narrative actually stands very close to fiction

1466
00:44:24,820 --> 00:44:27,500
And it's about a certain context of

1467
00:44:27,620 --> 00:44:28,920
how we speak,

1468
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:30,100
why we speak that way.

1469
00:44:30,180 --> 00:44:31,060
A narrative.

1470
00:44:31,060 --> 00:44:33,260
Each of us has some kind of narrative.

1471
00:44:33,260 --> 00:44:34,460
We have a narrative of our own life.

1472
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:35,560
Although I've read

1473
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,720
that not everyone has an internal narrator.

1474
00:44:37,770 --> 00:44:38,570
That surprised me.

1475
00:44:39,590 --> 00:44:40,030
I've read

1476
00:44:40,030 --> 00:44:41,810
that not everyone has an internal narrator.

1477
00:44:41,810 --> 00:44:42,310
I do.

1478
00:44:42,910 --> 00:44:43,750
But I think

1479
00:44:43,850 --> 00:44:44,870
it's fair to say

1480
00:44:44,930 --> 00:44:47,090
that most people have this inner narrator, and

1481
00:44:47,090 --> 00:44:48,510
that's how we go through life,

1482
00:44:48,550 --> 00:44:53,050
maintaining our own internal narrative and placing

1483
00:44:53,050 --> 00:44:56,350
events in a chronological order or

1484
00:44:56,350 --> 00:44:57,390
in terms of importance.

1485
00:44:57,810 --> 00:44:58,870
Returning to certain events,

1486
00:44:58,890 --> 00:45:00,010
restoring them.

1487
00:45:00,050 --> 00:45:02,870
In some way, we're embedded in this universe,

1488
00:45:02,870 --> 00:45:03,370
and it seems

1489
00:45:03,390 --> 00:45:04,710
to be a narrative approach.

1490
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,180
I recommend considering your own narrative.

1491
00:45:08,260 --> 00:45:10,100
If you're a doctor,

1492
00:45:10,100 --> 00:45:12,500
I recommend considering your patient's narrative.

1493
00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:14,620
It can be truly interesting.

1494
00:45:15,820 --> 00:45:17,520
It can also contribute to our lives.

1495
00:45:18,020 --> 00:45:18,780
I think

1496
00:45:18,820 --> 00:45:19,880
meeting someone

1497
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,420
who comes to us,

1498
00:45:21,460 --> 00:45:24,800
sharing a burning issue,

1499
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:25,980
is also a privilege.

1500
00:45:26,330 --> 00:45:27,990
To hear something like that from someone.

1501
00:45:28,030 --> 00:45:29,130
It's a close connection;

1502
00:45:29,150 --> 00:45:31,850
we're often with these people in crisis

1503
00:45:31,850 --> 00:45:32,550
situations,

1504
00:45:32,590 --> 00:45:35,070
often at the most important moments in their lives,

1505
00:45:35,110 --> 00:45:36,590
depending on their specialization,

1506
00:45:36,590 --> 00:45:36,910
I think.

1507
00:45:36,910 --> 00:45:38,710
But many people are—

1508
00:45:38,770 --> 00:45:40,570
for example, an emergency medicine specialist,

1509
00:45:40,590 --> 00:45:41,810
when they save someone after an accident,

1510
00:45:41,810 --> 00:45:44,490
it can be the most burdensome

1511
00:45:44,490 --> 00:45:45,710
event of their entire life.

1512
00:45:46,110 --> 00:45:48,510
And it's a psychological burden

1513
00:45:48,570 --> 00:45:50,470
that we often don't recognize.

1514
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:52,800
I'm learning to avoid generalizations,

1515
00:45:52,820 --> 00:45:54,040
but it's hard.

1516
00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:56,780
I also gained a sense from my studies,

1517
00:45:56,780 --> 00:45:57,680
That we pretend

1518
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:58,820
it doesn't burden us,

1519
00:45:58,820 --> 00:46:01,840
that we're so resilient, and we're also

1520
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:02,580
taught

1521
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,100
to be resilient or we can go find

1522
00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:06,900
another profession,

1523
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:08,340
to that extent.

1524
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:09,800
Maybe it's changing,

1525
00:46:09,820 --> 00:46:10,320
maybe,

1526
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:10,900
I don't know.

1527
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:11,820
I have the impression

1528
00:46:11,820 --> 00:46:13,240
that in my day it was like that.

1529
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:13,900
I think

1530
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:15,360
many people would agree with me.

1531
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,160
This can be a bit difficult,

1532
00:46:18,180 --> 00:46:20,300
because these difficult emotions

1533
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:21,160
don't disappear;

1534
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,780
they tend to linger in most people,

1535
00:46:23,900 --> 00:46:25,080
maybe not everyone,

1536
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:25,640
but I think

1537
00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:26,940
in many,

1538
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:27,760
certainly in me.

1539
00:46:28,540 --> 00:46:29,900
And that's one thing,

1540
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:30,720
and two,

1541
00:46:30,740 --> 00:46:31,440
too,

1542
00:46:32,660 --> 00:46:33,800
and two,

1543
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:34,500
well, it's that

1544
00:46:34,580 --> 00:46:37,600
you can learn to tell the story of your life

1545
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,420
as a doctor in a different way,

1546
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,000
because you can also begin to see these difficult moments

1547
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,420
as a privilege of being with someone through

1548
00:46:45,420 --> 00:46:46,340
moments in life

1549
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:47,840
that are difficult,

1550
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:48,240
important,

1551
00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:49,980
that somehow change their attitude,

1552
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:51,820
their perspective on the world.

1553
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,380
And often, being that companion is very

1554
00:46:56,380 --> 00:46:57,800
significant for that person.

1555
00:46:57,900 --> 00:46:58,660
I think we,

1556
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:00,220
as the years go by,

1557
00:47:00,220 --> 00:47:01,480
when you practice this profession,

1558
00:47:01,500 --> 00:47:02,580
you see it less and less.

1559
00:47:02,580 --> 00:47:03,420
I have the impression

1560
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,980
that it's becoming a daily occurrence,

1561
00:47:05,980 --> 00:47:07,500
that this is my job,

1562
00:47:07,500 --> 00:47:08,000
right?

1563
00:47:08,180 --> 00:47:10,100
An accountant fills out Excel spreadsheets,

1564
00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:11,000
and I have a job

1565
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:11,660
where I'm a companion.

1566
00:47:12,260 --> 00:47:12,820
I'm not saying

1567
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:13,720
it has to be a duty,

1568
00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:15,180
but it can simply be beneficial,

1569
00:47:15,180 --> 00:47:16,720
sometimes to look at it and think,

1570
00:47:16,980 --> 00:47:18,300
but damn, what I do

1571
00:47:18,300 --> 00:47:18,920
is important.

1572
00:47:20,380 --> 00:47:22,980
Maybe I'm important to my community,

1573
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:24,420
to my hospital,

1574
00:47:24,420 --> 00:47:25,060
to these people.

1575
00:47:25,180 --> 00:47:27,580
Maybe I've contributed something good to their lives.

1576
00:47:27,860 --> 00:47:28,360
Great,

1577
00:47:28,380 --> 00:47:30,080
so this kind of mindfulness, also for myself.

1578
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:30,600
For myself.

1579
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:31,460
Focused on myself.

1580
00:47:31,740 --> 00:47:32,400
And for things

1581
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,700
that become obvious,

1582
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:35,620
or maybe it would be better

1583
00:47:35,620 --> 00:47:36,500
if they didn't.

1584
00:47:39,060 --> 00:47:39,580
Wow,

1585
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:40,520
beautiful.

1586
00:47:42,060 --> 00:47:42,900
And do you think

1587
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,840
narrative medicine is a space

1588
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,340
where humanities scholars can somehow find their feet,

1589
00:47:49,340 --> 00:47:51,440
give something of themselves,

1590
00:47:51,460 --> 00:47:52,360
to the world.

1591
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:54,160
Well,

1592
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:54,720
I think

1593
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:56,720
the very fact

1594
00:47:56,780 --> 00:47:58,220
that this came into being

1595
00:47:58,220 --> 00:47:59,080
is thanks to the fact

1596
00:47:59,140 --> 00:48:01,020
that people are conducting research on literature,

1597
00:48:01,060 --> 00:48:01,680
culture,

1598
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:02,260
art,

1599
00:48:02,260 --> 00:48:02,840
music—

1600
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:04,500
it's thanks to you,

1601
00:48:04,700 --> 00:48:05,740
so to speak.

1602
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:07,380
People say

1603
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,440
the humanities are in crisis,

1604
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,380
that they're unnecessary to society,

1605
00:48:11,380 --> 00:48:13,500
but with this project we also want to show

1606
00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:14,980
that this isn't the case at all. That

1607
00:48:15,020 --> 00:48:18,500
the humanities also address difficult topics and can

1608
00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:20,690
provide certain tools,

1609
00:48:20,690 --> 00:48:21,430
inspiration,

1610
00:48:21,550 --> 00:48:25,050
for representatives of more useful specialties

1611
00:48:25,050 --> 00:48:28,330
to work together.

1612
00:48:28,390 --> 00:48:30,210
I wouldn't want to be the voice of the community,

1613
00:48:30,230 --> 00:48:32,750
because I don't know what the mood is on this aspect in

1614
00:48:32,750 --> 00:48:33,530
my community,

1615
00:48:33,550 --> 00:48:35,530
but I can speak for myself and for

1616
00:48:35,530 --> 00:48:36,610
the group of doctors

1617
00:48:36,610 --> 00:48:39,050
I know and who are also close to me,

1618
00:48:39,150 --> 00:48:40,910
that there is a place for this.

1619
00:48:40,930 --> 00:48:42,550
There is a place for this in our practice.

1620
00:48:43,390 --> 00:48:44,910
I certainly see

1621
00:48:44,930 --> 00:48:49,390
that my life would have been less valuable

1622
00:48:49,470 --> 00:48:52,730
if I had never come to the Faculty of History and

1623
00:48:52,730 --> 00:48:55,050
the Institute of Ecynology and Cultural Anthropology.

1624
00:48:56,190 --> 00:48:56,590
I think

1625
00:48:56,590 --> 00:48:58,350
my practice would also have suffered

1626
00:48:58,350 --> 00:48:59,190
because my practice,

1627
00:48:59,190 --> 00:49:00,150
whether I like it

1628
00:49:00,230 --> 00:49:00,550
or not,

1629
00:49:00,550 --> 00:49:01,090
is rooted in the

1630
00:49:01,150 --> 00:49:02,070
person I am.

1631
00:49:02,810 --> 00:49:03,730
Medical practice,

1632
00:49:03,750 --> 00:49:04,690
my medical practice.

1633
00:49:05,130 --> 00:49:07,450
Maybe it's a bit specific,

1634
00:49:07,490 --> 00:49:09,290
because I specialize in psychiatry,

1635
00:49:09,330 --> 00:49:11,230
so in psychiatry, you can't escape

1636
00:49:11,230 --> 00:49:11,670
narrative,

1637
00:49:11,670 --> 00:49:12,270
no matter

1638
00:49:12,350 --> 00:49:12,910
how hard you try.

1639
00:49:12,950 --> 00:49:14,670
Perhaps in other fields, you can try.

1640
00:49:15,340 --> 00:49:18,060
So I definitely see it too.

1641
00:49:19,420 --> 00:49:19,820
People

1642
00:49:19,820 --> 00:49:22,320
who want to pursue humanities,

1643
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,340
medical humanities, certainly have a place for them

1644
00:49:24,340 --> 00:49:25,640
in narrative medicine,

1645
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:27,040
in narrative sessions,

1646
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,380
or sessions conducted, for example, for patients,

1647
00:49:29,380 --> 00:49:30,500
where perhaps,

1648
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,080
if a doctor doesn't have time

1649
00:49:33,140 --> 00:49:35,540
to grasp certain aspects of the narrative,

1650
00:49:35,580 --> 00:49:37,940
perhaps a literary scholar could do it

1651
00:49:39,500 --> 00:49:42,080
Are there such sessions for patients in Polish

1652
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:42,580
hospitals?

1653
00:49:42,580 --> 00:49:43,860
I don't think there are any in Polish hospitals.

1654
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:45,100
At least, I'm not aware of any.

1655
00:49:45,620 --> 00:49:46,120
I was surprised.

1656
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:46,740
However, I know

1657
00:49:46,820 --> 00:49:48,380
they are abroad. Authors

1658
00:49:48,780 --> 00:49:52,360
who have dedicated their practice to narrative medicine

1659
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,820
are organizing them in this book .

1660
00:49:54,820 --> 00:49:55,360
They write about

1661
00:49:55,380 --> 00:49:58,300
such narrative sessions being organized,

1662
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,160
for example, they are very common and

1663
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,800
especially appreciated in oncology wards,

1664
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,560
where treatment is long-term,

1665
00:50:05,620 --> 00:50:07,400
involves life-threatening situations and

1666
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:09,860
there is a risk of death.

1667
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:12,560
And there, it has its place.

1668
00:50:12,620 --> 00:50:13,020
I think

1669
00:50:13,020 --> 00:50:15,800
it can be an extremely important

1670
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:16,660
experience for these patients.

1671
00:50:17,060 --> 00:50:18,340
Well,

1672
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:20,500
maybe a doctor doesn't have to be involved in everything.

1673
00:50:20,500 --> 00:50:23,820
Perhaps this could be part of some kind of oversight,

1674
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,140
just as

1675
00:50:26,140 --> 00:50:27,500
a nurse or

1676
00:50:27,500 --> 00:50:28,660
a laboratory diagnostician is part of a therapeutic team.

1677
00:50:28,700 --> 00:50:29,660
I think

1678
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:31,000
there's a place for that.

1679
00:50:31,620 --> 00:50:32,140
I do.

1680
00:50:32,750 --> 00:50:33,570
It would be wonderful

1681
00:50:33,570 --> 00:50:35,430
if such a therapeutic team also had

1682
00:50:35,430 --> 00:50:36,830
a place for a humanist,

1683
00:50:36,870 --> 00:50:37,570
a philologist,

1684
00:50:37,570 --> 00:50:38,730
who is everything,

1685
00:50:38,950 --> 00:50:39,830
a philosopher,

1686
00:50:39,830 --> 00:50:43,010
yes.
But isn't it somehow fundamental that

1687
00:50:43,050 --> 00:50:46,590
ethics are inherently linked to medicine

1688
00:50:46,590 --> 00:50:47,090
?

1689
00:50:47,110 --> 00:50:49,070
And you can't deny that,

1690
00:50:49,070 --> 00:50:49,810
what ethics are.

1691
00:50:50,830 --> 00:50:52,430
The humanities in their purest form.

1692
00:50:52,570 --> 00:50:53,570
So people

1693
00:50:53,590 --> 00:50:54,070
who say

1694
00:50:54,070 --> 00:50:55,470
it's unnecessary...

1695
00:50:57,720 --> 00:50:58,420
I don't know.

1696
00:50:58,500 --> 00:50:59,820
Exactly,
because we think of medicine

1697
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,480
as being more on the side of the exact sciences,

1698
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,160
but then again, there's probably no other field that

1699
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:06,240
touches people so deeply

1700
00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:08,060
,
and doesn't take as much interest in them as,

1701
00:51:08,180 --> 00:51:09,500
well, medicine.

1702
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,560
So, in a sense, it's immersed in

1703
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:13,160
the humanities.

1704
00:51:13,420 --> 00:51:14,360
I also wonder

1705
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,300
how much of this is an expression of certain frustrations and

1706
00:51:16,300 --> 00:51:16,800
needs.

1707
00:51:17,790 --> 00:51:19,250
People practicing medicine—

1708
00:51:19,250 --> 00:51:21,730
this is also a hypothetical,

1709
00:51:21,730 --> 00:51:24,870
perhaps psychoanalytical, consideration,

1710
00:51:24,890 --> 00:51:25,790
but perhaps it's somehow important

1711
00:51:25,870 --> 00:51:30,450
to understand how these needs of people practicing medicine

1712
00:51:30,450 --> 00:51:33,070
have been frustrated time and time again,

1713
00:51:33,070 --> 00:51:33,910
for many years,

1714
00:51:33,990 --> 00:51:37,950
that we've become so entrenched in this approach,

1715
00:51:37,950 --> 00:51:39,430
that we don't need the humanities

1716
00:51:39,490 --> 00:51:41,730
because we don't even want to think about it anymore.

1717
00:51:42,090 --> 00:51:44,310
Perhaps if we loosen it up a bit,

1718
00:51:44,310 --> 00:51:46,090
there might be more space.

1719
00:51:46,590 --> 00:51:47,090
I think

1720
00:51:47,110 --> 00:51:50,150
this view can absolutely be justified in a very

1721
00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:50,990
fundamental way:

1722
00:51:51,150 --> 00:51:53,090
that there is a place for it, and I would like

1723
00:51:53,090 --> 00:51:55,230
there to be, and I know at least a few

1724
00:51:55,230 --> 00:51:55,610
people

1725
00:51:55,610 --> 00:51:56,570
who agree with me,

1726
00:51:56,610 --> 00:51:57,150
that's how we say it.

1727
00:51:57,410 --> 00:51:58,270
I agree too,

1728
00:51:58,270 --> 00:51:59,650
I'm joining the ranks of those people.

1729
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:01,780
Thank you, Adrianna.

1730
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:02,780
Thank you very much.

1731
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:03,920
For the conversation,

1732
00:52:03,940 --> 00:52:04,460
for the meeting.

1733
00:52:04,460 --> 00:52:06,400
A very pleasant meeting.

1734
00:52:06,460 --> 00:52:08,240
We could continue

1735
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:09,420
like this.

1736
00:52:09,540 --> 00:52:11,360
And we will probably continue somehow.

1737
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:12,840
And we will continue somehow.

1738
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:13,860
There is hope,

1739
00:52:13,860 --> 00:52:15,420
there are people in this country

1740
00:52:15,580 --> 00:52:19,240
who believe in narrative medicine and believe in

1741
00:52:19,240 --> 00:52:20,360
some kind of change,

1742
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:21,180
so I think

1743
00:52:21,220 --> 00:52:22,580
we're on the right track.

1744
00:52:22,620 --> 00:52:25,660
Thank you for this appreciation of the humanities,

1745
00:52:25,700 --> 00:52:28,160
for recognizing their components in various spheres

1746
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:28,860
of our lives,

1747
00:52:28,940 --> 00:52:30,680
for the fact that they too have something to say.

1748
00:52:30,860 --> 00:52:32,360
But to put it in perspective,

1749
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:34,060
to impress everyone,

1750
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:35,180
That this is important,

1751
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:36,180
that we are here

1752
00:52:36,220 --> 00:52:38,190
to make a difference.

1753
00:52:38,350 --> 00:52:41,970
So thank you again, and see you soon.

1754
00:52:41,970 --> 00:52:42,570
See you soon.

1755
00:52:47,130 --> 00:52:51,010
The "Engaged Polish Studies" podcast series was produced

1756
00:52:51,010 --> 00:52:53,230
as part of the "Polish Studies and the Challenges

1757
00:52:53,230 --> 00:52:54,310
of the Modern World" project.

1758
00:52:55,030 --> 00:52:57,630
Co-financed from the state budget under

1759
00:52:57,630 --> 00:53:00,710
the "Science for Society 2"

1760
00:53:00,710 --> 00:53:01,770
program of the Minister of Education and Science.

1761
00:53:01,850 --> 00:53:03,810
The project number is in the description.

1762
00:53:04,650 --> 00:53:07,690
We invite you to listen to subsequent episodes

1763
00:53:07,690 --> 00:53:09,750
available on Sprecare,

1764
00:53:09,930 --> 00:53:13,410
Spotify, and YouTube, as well as in the online Polish Studies Newsletter.

1765
00:53:14,450 --> 00:53:16,250
See you soon!